Occult related material in a Christian market

[christiankev2008]

Greetings all,

My current project involves the story of a teenage girl who, after being involved with Wicca for some time, gets saved and becomes a Christian. She goes away to boarding school where she encounters it again. She stays true to God and ultimately shows that the powers of God overshadow all evil. Since there has been an explosion of witchcraft material released in the last few years, much of it directed toward teenagers, the book is directed specifically to young adults. There is a lot of references to the occult, particularly wicca and witchcraft, however the overall theme of the book is God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and power to protect those who are fully devoted to Him and Him alone.

Now here's my question:
Do you feel that the subject matter of this book is good for the Christian youth market and why?

I look forward to your responses in this matter.

Grace and peace to you all,
Kevin
Micah 6:6-8

[callalily61]

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to AW.

My first question is not on the appropriateness of it, but on correct use of terms. No one can "get saved out of a Wicca." Wicca is a religion, not an object. Although I'm thinking this is a typo here and you've done your research.

First and foremost, are you telling a gripping story? Are the characters 3-D or are they "evil snarky Wiccan chick" vs. "sweet wholesome Christian chick"? If your story grabs us by the throat and forces us to stay up till 3 am because we have to finish it, then I'd bet it would grab an agent--and teenage readers--the same way.

Oh--and if you fill out your profile we'll all have a better idea of who the new guy is. :D

[christiankev2008]

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to AW.

My first question is not on the appropriateness of it, but on correct use of terms. No one can "get saved out of a Wicca." Wicca is a religion, not an object. Although I'm thinking this is a typo here and you've done your research.

First and foremost, are you telling a gripping story? Are the characters 3-D or are they "evil snarky Wiccan chick" vs. "sweet wholesome Christian chick"? If your story grabs us by the throat and forces us to stay up till 3 am because we have to finish it, then I'd bet it would grab an agent--and teenage readers--the same way.

Oh--and if you fill out your profile we'll all have a better idea of who the new guy is. :D


I have to say that when I read your reply I had to smile and laugh. Not at what you said but because you have solved the writing dilemma that brought me to this forum in the first place. I have to be honest it is exactly what you said, snarky wiccan chick vs. wholesome Christian chick. My problem of late with the work has been trying to stretch it out to a decent length so it will have a descent shot at getting grabbed by an agent. I have a better idea of what I need to do now to get this piece up to par. Any suggestions form you on this matter would be helpful. I am currently planning a total re-write of the piece, not to change the plot but to add depth and detail to the characters and scenes.

Thank you for your post. It was well received.
Kevin

P.S. My profile is now updated!:snoopy:

[callalily61]

If it's at a decent, polished 2nd-3rd draft stage, you can post the beginning in SYW. But keep in mind SYW is not for the faint of heart or thin of skin. We're there to help your work improve, not just pat it on the head and say, "nice job."

ETA: PM the first chapter to me. I'll be an honest critic--I use the sandwich method, but I don't flame or pat heads. (If your characters preach, however, I will 'argh' at you. Long story. :) Fair warning.)

[Deb Kinnard]

Kev, if you can give your Wiccan characters admirable traits (some) and your Christian chick less-than-admirable traits (some), and/or have people do right things for wrong motivations, you'll have created multi-dimensional characters that engage the reader. Always a good thing.

One thing I hate is when the hero ALWAYS makes right choices, even when the results aren't what he expected. Makes me want to hissy-slap 'em.

[IdiotsRUs]

Um, I hesitate to say this, but are you saying that wicca is evil?

[callalily61]

Um, I hesitate to say this, but are you saying that wicca is evil?

IdiotsR, I didn't want to get into that, yanno? It's one of those discussions that tend to go downhill really fast. That's why I was trying to steer the posts away from beliefs and focus on writing issues.

I think the mods prefer we keep threads about writing and not ideologies.

Anyway, I'm hoping that Kevin's fiction simply uses the literary device of a snarky Wiccan vs. a sweet Christian. Because I'm not qualified to discuss in detail the fact that Wicca is not evil. Sure, I know a tick more than the basics, but that doesn't make me anywhere near an expert. And there are other sites for that--Beliefnet being my favorite.

So rather than say something that'll get me banned, I kept to the writing angle.


And, um, Kevin? Feel free to tell me to stop putting words in your mouth. :)

[benbradley]

Just my "outsider" opinion, partly from lurking in so many other threads in the Christian forum as well as others on AW. The subject matter may be okay (trying to stay well away from specifics and the discussion generated in the last two posts), but the synopsis comes across as quite lecturing. I've seen this discussed in threads here regarding Christian fiction, as well as in the YA forum with discussion of stories that talk down to the readers. Generally speaking, readers won't read them, and editors know better than to buy them. Here are two threads I think are relevant:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86949
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99496

[johnnysannie]

Why not snarky Christian chick versus sweet Wicca girl?

That would be far less of a cliche!

[Deb Kinnard]

But isn't that cliche in itself? To do your Christian character as a clone of Mandy Moore in the movie "Saved"? I think there's way too much Christian bashing going on in the mainstream media. If I can think of one film where the only truly despicable character is the televangelist or the minister or the priest, I can think of a dozen.

I'd opt for multi-dimensional, conflicted characters, battling out their own salvation in their own (sometimes spot-on, sometimes misguided) ways.

[StephanieFox]

I am very troubled by your idea. I realize that conversion from other religious belief is something deeply ingrained in Christian belief, and that your plot is based in that idea. However, please understand the implications of your story.

Imagine that instead of 'saving' this girl from Wicca, your character was saved from Judaism. The same kind of problems will result. Your reader goes back to high school, meets a classmate who is being raised Wiccan. Your reader might feel justified to engage in religious bigotry.

Please understand that Wiccans (or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus for that matter) don't like being target for conversion and are fearful of their children being coerced into changing religions. (Wiccans believe in free choice, but they and their children are often the target of conversion techniques that Christians are taught in church. Wiccans (and Jews, etc.) see these as no different from the techniques cults use.)

I don't think that making the Wiccan have some nice qualities is enough to help. Whatever ideas makes anyone think that Wiccans are not good people are not going to be changed by a little S & L (Wiccan shorthand for 'sweetness and light.')

Wouldn't it be better to have a Christian and Wiccan (and Jewish and Hindu) characters as friends, banding together against something truly bad? I'm not really asking you to write this, of course, but please consider the effect of the story on young (and older) Christian readers.

If you do insist on using the Wiccan angle, please be accurate. Study Wicca and don't go by the lies you may have been told, ie; Samhain is the god of death (Samhain is actually the 1st day of winter on the Irish and Wiccan calendar).

[callalily61]

*waves in the general direction of NJ to see if Kevin's coming back*

[flutecrafter]

Howdy Kev...

Not sure how much help I'll be on the writing end of things, but I might be of
some assistance otherwise, for I agree that accuracy is essential.

mark

[Zoombie]

My stance on religion in my novels is "if one is right, they all are."

Which is why Thor and Zeus are eating BBQ in the backyard while an atheist and an angel are co-writing a new version of the Bible.

But that's cause I am INSANE.

Really...3D characters and a gripping tale are all you need to have a good book. Or at least a fun to read book. Whether your book will be "good" as in morally...well, when you suggest that another religion needs to be saved (something that bugs a lot of people. Including me), then some people start gnashing their teeth.

<gnash gnash>

But, really, S.Fox has already summed up everything I've wanted to say on the topic ^_^


PS: Oh, other than, of course, good luck on your writing, welcome to AW and if you ever need any help, be sure to ask here, cause you will be bombarded with advice. If the advice came in the form of...arrows, then you'd be in trouble. That's why we use forums. Not arrows.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Which is why Thor and Zeus are eating BBQ in the backyard
Thor doesn't like BBQ. Makes his hands sticky for when he's trying to quaff a flaggon of ale.

[Roger J Carlson]

I have to agree and disagree.

Certainly, having a snarky Wiccan girl and nice Christian girl is cliche. And there are a lot of possibilities in having a snarky Christian girl and a nice Wiccan. However, let's remember that this is Christian fiction for the Christian Market. There is a presumption that Christianity is right. Although this may bother some people, they are not really the intended audience.

What about a story where a snarky Christian girl learns a lot about herself in the process of leading a nice Wiccan to Christ?

[III]

And honestly, being cliche does not seem to be detrimental to getting published in the Christian Fiction market. In fact, quite the opposite. *sigh*TM.

But this gang is working on changing that.

[Gillhoughly]

Speaking as a Christian who deals daily with Wiccans, I would like to see them un-demonized in Christian books. Just 'cause one isn't a Christian doesn't mean one is automatically e-vul.

I've met way more snarky Christians than Wiccans.

I've met more Wiccans who follow the Golden Rule better than those calling themselves Christians.

And I've met way more Wiccans who know their Bible better than the Christians. When it comes to spiritual debates it can get embarrassing.

Can't we all just get along? Jesus was nice to that (pagan) Roman soldier with the sick kid, yanno.

Just a thought. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

I would suggest attending a few Wiccan functions -- for research. Just go and observe and listen, don't try to convert anyone, as it would be rude. They don't barge into churches on Sunday to make converts, after all.

There's nothing like seeing things for oneself rather than relying on what could be biased and/or questionable sources on the Net.

One commonality I've noted is that Wiccans dislike Satanists just as much as Christians do.

Gosh, could we all be on the same side? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Melisande]

Well, here I was writing this long PM to you, and it disappeared...

So I'll try posting the gist of it right here;

Not all witches are of the Wiccan belief, and not all Pagans consider their beliefs occult (loosely meaning hidden) because to us (a presumption, of course, and I apologize for the generalization) it is clear as day.

I am no longer a practicing witch, but even when I was one, it was not within the Wiccan faith. I am a 'former' witch, and that doesn't mean that I, when I gave it up, automatically was converted into Christianity, or was 'saved'... Actually it means that I (personally) developed into a state of non-believing.

Your plot might be intriguing if you (and I'm agreeing with everyone else here) bother to read up on witchcraft, and give it the proper regard. Christianity (as far as I've understood the basics of it) is in itself a beautiful and powerful message, but it has also been abused quite a lot throughout history by it's representatives.

With this post I only wanted to caution you that the step from Wiccan, as you call it - though witchcraft is indeed a much wider concept -to Christianity might not be equal to just a 'step-up' (as many Christians would prefer to call it) on the ladder of belief. It might be just the opposite (again in the Biblical way of thinking) as it was in my case. (Though I have always thought that I ended up with the sweet end of the lollipop)

There is little logic in the wonderful, and hard to understand, world of different beliefs. It is, however, a mistake to assume that the abandonement of one naturally leads to the other....

[rugcat]

However, let's remember that this is Christian fiction for the Christian Market. There is a presumption that Christianity is right. Although this may bother some people, they are not really the intended audience.This is a valid point. Christian fiction is often propaganda -- not in the pejorative sense it's usually used, but simply meaning a story whose basic purpose is to convince or extol the virtues of the Christian belief system.

It doesn't have to be that way, but in publishing reality it does, much like the romance genre mostly insists on a HEA ending.

One of my favorite writers is Graham Greene. His books A Burnt Out Case and The Heart Of The Matter got him labeled as a "Catholic" writer for a while. But they are surely books with a Christian theme -- the relation of deep faith to everyday life, and how extraordinary events, driven by human failings interact with that faith.

He was a brilliant novelist and a deep thinker, dealing with religious matters in a way that made them universal and important, whether you are a believer or not.

He wasn't much for the HEA, though.

[dadburnett]

Reading through all the posts I find a lot therein that needs to be considered! I also have concerns about a Christian writing about things they themselves oppose, be it Wiccan, or Mormon or whatever. Many anti-this or anti-that books have been written with many of them containing an abundance of misinformation about the non-Christian entity. The other thing I wonder about is a male writing about teenage girls –chicks. Can a guy really write with any credibility about the opposite sex? There is a danger her perhaps in the writer coming off as a purveyor of female clichés … I’ve looked at your profile and I see nothing therein that would seem to suggest any special insight into the female mind, especially the female teenager’s mind.

[callalily61]

Sorry to say this, but now I'm wondering if the OP wasn't a drive-by to see how many people he could get up in arms...

[Roger J Carlson]

This is a valid point. Christian fiction is often propaganda -- not in the pejorative sense it's usually used, but simply meaning a story whose basic purpose is to convince or extol the virtues of the Christian belief system. Or to validate or reinforce a currently held belief. Not disagreeing, just extending. Some people want to be challenged in their faith. Others do not. There's nothing inherently right or wrong with books that do either.

It doesn't have to be that way, but in publishing reality it does, much like the romance genre mostly insists on a HEA ending.Good example. Every genre has its conventions. Some are stronger than others. The Christian market has some fairly strong conventions, and if you want to publish in that market, you'd better follow them.

I would agree with others here, though, that a book about Wicca should have some strong research behind it to reflect reality and not preconceived beliefs.

But that's good advice for any writing. :)

[Roger J Carlson]

Sorry to say this, but now I'm wondering if the OP wasn't a drive-by to see how many people he could get up in arms...The beauty of free will is that no one has to get up in arms...

[callalily61]

The beauty of free will is that no one has to get up in arms...

:D

[Gillhoughly]

She's a snarky Christian chick in college.

This one's her snarky Wiccan roomie.

This one's their snarky Native American study partner.

They fight crime!

http://www.gamersblogs.com/images/galleryimages/40/1153161498_mid.jpg






I just could NOT resist.

[IdiotsRUs]

As it looks like a drive by....

This is a valid point. Christian fiction is often propaganda -- not in the pejorative sense it's usually used, but simply meaning a story whose basic purpose is to convince or extol the virtues of the Christian belief system.

And I don't think that would be a problem to anyone. My concern was only that portraying people of other faiths ( whichever faiths they are) as 'evil' wouldn't be apppropriate for a christian YA book, because it might well foster both false stereotyping and intolerence of other faiths.

I've read and enjoyed several christian works -- These books set out christian values etc, but did not say that faiths other than christianity are bad. Extolling christian virtues doesn't mean trashing other faith's virtues.

Wouldn't it be better to have a Christian and Wiccan (and Jewish and Hindu) characters as friends, banding together against something truly bad?

That would be a fantastic book :)

[callalily61]

Gillhoughly: :roll: That's great! Call Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network and pitch "The Snarklets".

IdiotsR: I think it'd be a great book--I'd steal the idea if I wrote YA...

[Roger J Carlson]

I've read and enjoyed several christian works -- These books set out christian values etc, but did not say that faiths other than christianity are bad. Extolling christian virtues doesn't mean trashing other faith's virtues. Again, I will both agree and disagree. Trashing someone else's faith is an un-Christian attitude. Paul spoke against it. Nevertheless, I don't believe insisting that Christianity is right (and by implication that others are wrong) is necessarily the same thing.

There is a prevailing thought today that every story that deals with faith must include a tacit understanding that everyone's faith is equal, that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe. Unfortunately, that's not one of the tenants of Christianity.

[Michael Scott]

I would suggest the best thing to do would be to honestly and fairly represent both positions - especially relating to the misunderstandings that exist between Christians and neo-pagans or Wiccans.

The main thing is to tell the truth - not the version of the truth that paints your main character in the best light, nor which paints modern American Christianity in the best light, either. Be honest. Wiccans aren't bad people worshipping the devil.

And Christians trying to evangelize aren't (all) narrow-minded bigots trying to cram their religion down other people's throats.

If you deal with the issues and questions in a way that lets the reader see both points of view, then you've done your job. I don't believe all religions are equal, but they certainly are deserving of equal time. And I think Christianity, rightly presented and understood, kicks butt each and every time.

In my novel The Coppersmith, the debates between the nominally religious State Police officer Curtis Bold and the antagonistically atheistic agent Ron Wilson present marvelous opportunity to show the differences and misunderstandings between the two viewpoints. That's the kind of thing I'd recommend.

[HeronW]

Or the Wiccan girl says to the wanna be Christian, hey, let's explore what faith is right for you and get the badasses together?

[IdiotsRUs]

There is a prevailing thought today that every story that deals with faith must include a tacit understanding that everyone's faith is equal, that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe. Unfortunately, that's not one of the tenants of Christianity.

I completely understand that ( although it is a tenet of my religion :)) I understand that if you are writing christian fic, then obviously you are wanting to uphoild that faith. But there are ways..and there are ways. Making out that other faiths are evil just for existing, and that therefore their followers must be evil too is not a good one for promoting harmony and tolerance ( which is what we all want, right?). If you think my faith is not equal, well that's your right, but to state it's evil just for being there....

However if you were to state that say even unbelievers are the children of god, whether they know it or not, and that you believe christianity is the right and true faith, that's a banana of a whole different colour. I'm not offended by how people see their own religion, but I might be offended by how other people see mine, especially if it is willfully misrepresented.

It's not always what you say, it's how you say it.

The main thing is to tell the truth - not the version of the truth that paints your main character in the best light, nor which paints modern American Christianity in the best light, either. Be honest. Wiccans aren't bad people worshipping the devil.

Absolutely, and not just because Wiccans don't even believe in the devil, which makes it kinda hard to worship him :)

Truth is king.

Or the Wiccan girl says to the wanna be Christian, hey, let's explore what faith is right for you and get the badasses together? Yup, because no one religion can be right for every person alive. But kicking the badasses, that rocks!

[Zoombie]

Ahem...

Technically, you'd want to kick the badness...kicking the badness is being badass. Cuase being badass is good!

Jesus was badass, see. He totally punched all those guys. Or refrained from punching them. Either way, badass.

So you should REALLY say "let's explore what faith is right for you and get the badness together."

[Gehanna]

"I'm your huckleberry." - Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in Tombstone.

Nearly every day I wake in awe of The Grace that saved me. I realize that I did not acquire my alias by accident. I keep the name Gehanna because it serves as a nomenclative memorial.

I don't know if nomenclative is a legitimate word but, I like it. Obviously, not everything has changed. :D

Sincerely,
Gehanna

[Michael Scott]

I'm not offended by how people see their own religion, but I might be offended by how other people see mine, especially if it is willfully misrepresented.

That's the point right there. Tell the truth about both faiths in your story. Honestly represent both.

I a Christian - a pastor even - and I fully believe Christianity kicks every other religion's butt (if only because, rightly understood, it isn't a religion.). I don't need to run other faith's down. I can simply put them in the balance along with Christianity and let the scales tip.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Greetings all,

My current project involves the story of a teenage girl who, after being involved with Wicca for some time, gets saved and becomes a Christian. She goes away to boarding school where she encounters it again. She stays true to God and ultimately shows that the powers of God overshadow all evil. Since there has been an explosion of witchcraft material released in the last few years, much of it directed toward teenagers, the book is directed specifically to young adults. There is a lot of references to the occult, particularly wicca and witchcraft, however the overall theme of the book is God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and power to protect those who are fully devoted to Him and Him alone.

Now here's my question:
Do you feel that the subject matter of this book is good for the Christian youth market and why?

I look forward to your responses in this matter.

Grace and peace to you all,
Kevin
Micah 6:6-8


I do. I think it's a good subject for both Christian youth and for non-Christian youth. The reason: people need to see Christians as real people, not as religious airheads who preach one thing and do another. For anyone to see Christ as real, they have to see His reality in other people. When someone you know becomes a different person because they've accepted Christ into their heart, that is a mightier witness of Christ's reality than all the sermons that all the preachers of all the churches in all the world have ever spoken.

The work as you have envisioned it, can give to Christian youth an understanding of why it is so important to live their faith. And for non-Christian youth, it can show them just what Christ can do in a person, albeit a fictional character. Whether or not they end up accepting Him as their Savior, they will see a 'real' Christ, Who is not only capable, but ready and willing, to change lives for the better and forgive them when they foul up.

So yes, I do think this will be an excellent premise for Christian youth, but like I said, I think some non-Christian youth can also benefit from the example of your main character.

:)

I like it.