To the publisher or get an agent?

Try agents first. If all the agents reject you, you can still try publishers, but if all the publishers have said no to your manuscript, the agents may not be too enthusiastic about pitching it again to them.

Queen of Swords said:

Try agents first. If all the agents reject you, you can still try publishers, but if all the publishers have said no to your manuscript, the agents may not be too enthusiastic about pitching it again to them.

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What She Said.

Have you tried posting your query letter in SYW for feedback?

You have, of course, read through the thread on SF/F agents that is stickied in this section.
It is possible to get directly to some of the editors who publish SF, particularly by meeting them at conventions, but without an agent it is a tremendously slow process. I would stick with trying to get an agent. If the agents are turning your work down then the chances are the editors will also do so.
I presume being in Austin that you have joined one of the sf/f writing groups there.

If I had to do it again, I'd go to the agents first. There are more agents than publishers, and you can query multiple agents simultaneously.

One of the major SF/F publishers took 2.5 years to make an offer on my book. That's a 2.5 year wait, and you're not supposed to submit your book elsewhere while you wait.

Plus, agents know the industry and can negotiate a good deal for you.

You've gotten some good advice here. Use it.

I agree that it's probably better to seek an agent first. That's certainly what I'm doing, at least for now. Fortunately, in the SFF field, one can submit directly to a few publishers, though as has already been pointed out, there are no simultaneous submissions, so that can take a loooong time. (2.5 years, Jim? Wow.)

waylander said:

If the agents are turning your work down then the chances are the editors will also do so.

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That may be true, but then again, who knows? One agent loves what another hates. And while it's true that agents are supposed to have their finger on the pulse of what editors like and want, a lot of it seems to come down to trend-chasing.

If agents keep rejecting your work, what that means is that they don't think it will sell to an editor/publisher. That's the one thing you can know from that interaction. Beyond that, they may not like the story, or it doesn't speak to them, or they don't think the writing is good enough. And maybe it isn't. But just because an agent "rejects" your work (in most cases, that means "your query letter," and even then, odds are it's being rejected by an intern, not the agent her/himself) doesn't necessarily mean that your work sucks.

If your work is worthy of publication, I would say to query agents, and then if no one bites, set up a website/blog and start getting yourself and your work out there. Who knows? In a year, there could be a new agent who would love your work. Or, in a few years, the industry might be totally different. Great books are timeless, in my opinion, and if it's good now, it'll still be good in a few years.

I'm sure Jim could second this--that in the publishing world, patience is not only a virtue, but a requirement.

Cheers.

It may take a while--or not--but absolutely, positively agent first. These days it's very hard,-not impossible-to get anywhere in this business without an agent.

walker206:
If agents keep rejecting your work, what that means is that they don't think it will sell to an editor/publisher. That's the one thing you can know from that interaction. Beyond that, they may not like the story, or it doesn't speak to them, or they don't think the writing is good enough. And maybe it isn't. But just because an agent "rejects" your work (in most cases, that means "your query letter," and even then, odds are it's being rejected by an intern, not the agent her/himself) doesn't necessarily mean that your work sucks.

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I agree. However, if you've sent your query/partial/full to every legitimate agent in the genre and they have all turned it down, then there's a strong probability that there is something wrong with your query/partial/full (and I mean no offence to anyone in saying that). That's why it's important not to send out loads of submissions at the same time - the rejection process, though painful, also gives you the opportunity to spot what might be wrong and fix it before sending it out again.

walker206:
I would say to query agents, and then if no one bites, set up a website/blog and start getting yourself and your work out there.

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I disagree. If you've written one book and have got nowhere with it, then you need to start working on another book and repeat the process. And if that doesn't work, then write a third book and so on and so on until you get something that someone wants. Don't get stuck on the idea that you've written your magnus opus and you'll hang around until someone recognises your genius.

In the meantime, write short stories and see if you can get those published, go to fantasy/SF/horror conventions and meet people in the industry and other writers, educate yourself about how things work. But definitely don't stop at the one book. You can't hang back waiting for the right agent to start working or for the industry to change to suit you.

MM

You'll have far more opportunities when you have an agent representing you and your work than if you go it alone. Remember, agents aren't just about the contracts. They're also about the contacts. They have a beat on who's looking for what, and when. And a terrific agent will be your biggest fan, and will be pushing for you when they meet those editors. They'll fight for you. They'll go to the wall for you.

A terrific agent is an invaluable partner in your writing career.

Try for an agent first. But bear a couple of things in mind:

1: There aren't a lot of F/SF agents out there. The number is variable, but it's somewhere around 60-70. And of that number, only a relative few are top-tier and stand a good chance of selling your work to an editor. Fantasy and science-fiction is a very small target.

2: Rejections per se may or may not tell you anything useful. A personal rejection with specific comments is a gem to be treasured, but form rejections only leave you wondering for what reason you were turned down.

With that in mind -- along with the other comments posted here -- start submitting to agencies.

Momento Mori said:

I disagree. If you've written one book and have got nowhere with it, then you need to start working on another book and repeat the process. And if that doesn't work, then write a third book and so on and so on until you get something that someone wants.
MM

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Well, that's certainly one way to look at it, but not everyone is writing to "get something that someone wants." There are many different kinds of writers out there, writing with different motivations. Some people "want to be a writer," and don't care what they actually write. Some people "want to be a published author" and spend their careers trend-chasing. (For those types, it's obvious that the thing to be cranking out now is a YA vampire story.)

Also, this discussion was not about having "gotten nowhere" with a book. It's about beginning the process of getting it somewhere.

Sure, if you've got another story ready, then start writing it. If you've got some good short stories, great! I'm not sure I said that one should sit on one book their entire life. If I came across that way, it was certainly not my intention.

As for myself, the novel I just finished is the first in a series. It is an idea I have been working on for almost 9 years, on and off (in a taking notes sense kind of way). I have just started querying agents, and while the rejections are coming in, I have already had a request for a partial and a full, so it obviously doesn't suck. But, say it doesn't get picked up right now. If you think I'm going to just give up on it because it doesn't fit in with the current trends, then, well, we're doing this for different reasons. And that's fine. There's room for all of us, methinks.

I'm not in a rush to publish this story. I'm perfectly happy to continue working on the series in my own time, and keep an eye on how things change in the industry. Because if you don't think that trends change, then you need to step back and take another look. I believe in my work. Simple as that. If 40 or so people don't believe in it right now because of who knows what reasons, which may or may not have anything at all to do with the quality of the work, well, I'm not sure I'm the kind of person to let the opinions of a few people determine my course of action.

Quick story to illustrate this. I knew a musician once who (with his partner) got signed to a major label, back in the 90s. They played singer-songwriter stuff, which, at that time, was not popular at all in the industry. After two albums, they got dropped. The other day, I came across this guy's name and picture on the internet. He's playing country music, and he's dressed up like a cowboy! Which, to me, knowing him back then, is kind of funny. And this is a major country band. They just won some big CMA or whatever, and sell many, many records.

So, he did just what you suggested, and now he's rich and famous. That's one version of success.

One should ask oneself why they are doing what they're doing.

If you want to chase "success," well, that guy I knew proves that it's possible to get it that way. Not sure that way's for me, though.

And I'm not saying that that's what you're doing, either MM. Your comments just raised some interesting issues, which I wanted to comment on myself.

walker206 said:

I

If agents keep rejecting your work, what that means is that they don't think it will sell to an editor/publisher.
Cheers.

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I was reading one agent's blog where she turned down a good manuscript because "she wanted a rich, chocolatey story instead of something meaty" or whatever. In other words, she thought it was really good but she wasn't in the mood for that type of story.

I found that discouraging. I don't think it was an SF/F agent though.


Personally, I'm trying to build a record in the short story department while honing my skills. That way I have some kind of resume to bring to an agent.

bluejester12 said:

I was reading one agent's blog where she turned down a good manuscript because "she wanted a rich, chocolatey story instead of something meaty" or whatever. In other words, she thought it was really good but she wasn't in the mood for that type of story.

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Unfortunately, that's how the business works. Assuming your manuscript is reasonably well-written in the first place, it has to cross exactly the right desk of exactly the right person at exactly the right time before anyone will even read it, let alone decide to represent it.

Talent is a necessity. But talent alone won't get you published.

arkady said:

Unfortunately, that's how the business works. Assuming your manuscript is reasonably well-written in the first place, it has to cross exactly the right desk of exactly the right person at exactly the right time before anyone will even read it, let alone decide to represent it.

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It seems odd, but it's true. It's why a manuscript can be loved by an agent, and yet they still give you the "I don't think I'm the right person...this business is subjective" line. They use the line, because it's true. That doesn't mean the next person won't come along with "I loved it, I want to represent it."

walker206:
But, say it doesn't get picked up right now. If you think I'm going to just give up on it because it doesn't fit in with the current trends, then, well, we're doing this for different reasons. And that's fine. There's room for all of us, methinks.

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The reason for my previous comment was because unfortunately there are people out there who are looking to be published but only ever write the one book or write long series of books, which don't get published because they're dependent on the first book, which they keep sending out and which keeps being rejected (I appreciate that this isn't true of you, I'm speaking generally). Personally, if that's what someone wants to do then I don't have a problem with it because it's their choice.

However, if you go on and write something else (or lots of something elses ) and one of those gets picked up by an agent and then a publisher, there's nothing to stop you saying "By the way, I've got this novel X in my drawer that I'd like to give another shot, what do you think?" and it's possible that the book is good and/or the trends have changed and/or your first published book makes it financially worthwhile for it to be worth the risk of publishing.

You talk about wanting to chase success but most novelists write books that they want to have published. That doesn't involve "chasing trends" or compromising your principles, it means working at the craft, coming up with different ideas and having the skill to write something that people want to buy. Now I agree, there are some books that are dependent on trend - hang out on agent blogs and you see things like "vampires are out, zombies are in", but you can't simply say "well my book isn't trendy right now" and expect that this is the reason for it being rejected (and again, I'm not saying that this is what you're doing, I'm talking generally).

Speaking personally, I'm writing a fantasy for teenagers at the moment - not because that's trendy, but because it's what I like reading. When it's finished and the best I can get it but no one picks it up (for whatever reason), then I've got an idea for an SF book for teenagers that I'll write and if that doesn't work, I'll write the dark fantasy for children that's been going around my head and if no one wants that, I've got an idea for a dark thriller for teenagers and so on and so forth. At some point, I would love to be able to sustain a career as a writer and for me, that seems to mean being able to rinse and repeat the creative process.

MM

My first novel (now out and about) is heroic fantasy

My second (draft complete in edits) is space opera.

My third won't be related to either of the first two.

MM - I appreciate your clarification, and I totally agree with what you said about not sitting on one book/series, and that if something gets picked up later, then there's nothing stopping that first book/series from being given another chance. Then again, the industry is going to be changing big-time, and it will be interesting to see what the new options will be for authors who don't necessarily write what "the market" (ie., agents and editors) thinks is marketable right now...but which might be in a few months.

As for the trends and the trend-chasers, MM is so right about those agent sites. It's kind of funny and silly to me when I read that stuff. And trust me, the trend chasers are out there. In droves. Again, like MM said, go to a few of the big agents' blogs, and you'll see that kind of thing all over the place in the comments sections.

I won't say more about that issue because I think I covered my feelings on that kind of thing in my previous post. But I will say, and this is not meant as an argument, that I do believe that one of the reasons my book, along with those by many others, isn't being picked up is because it doesn't fit in with the current trends. I'm not so much complaining about that as pointing it out as being lamentable. This is the way the business, and most businesses work--they chase trends and what's "hot." Their jobs depend on selling, on making money. Again, I'm not trying to diss them by saying that, because it's simply a fact. But, that kind of thing will always be in conflict with creative integrity. It's the time-honored conflict when it comes to trying to make a living as an "artist."

And arkady--I think you hit the nail right on the head.

And then you read the agent blog post about how they just signed an author who writes nothing like their other authors, the story is totally not hot right now, and it is twice or half the length of the "norm". Still they signed the author because the story was so compelling.

I think it is comforting for us to think our work gets rejected because it's too outside the box. And maybe it's true. However I tend to think that, yes, agents want certain kinds of books, but if they see something truly uniquely spectacular, they'll still go for it.

I am not by any means comparing myself to those artists who are truly unique that way, but I was rejected for being too "old fashioned" by some agents, and yet my work found a home eventually. Most everything about my book goes against what people say they want for an MG - female protagonist (agents are looking for boys these days), intrusive author, episodic, extensive vocabulary, long (more than twice as long as the typical wordcount for my genre). Though it did have pirates going for it. Maybe pirates counter everything else, they are that mighty.

But it's the point that has already been made several times in this thread. Writing to a trend is pointless. Writing well, that's everything.

I also think that people forget that agents sometimes reject books not because they're bad, but because they don't feel sufficiently excited about them to sell them.

Toothpaste said:

I am not by any means comparing myself to those artists who are truly unique that way, but I was rejected for being too "old fashioned" by some agents, and yet my work found a home eventually.

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I think that's one of the big points I'm trying to make. Unless you're trend-chasing, I think that if you truly have a book that's worthy of publication, it will eventually find a home.

I appreciated your comments, Toothpaste. I checked out your blog and website and was surprised to see that we're actually new Myspace friends! Eeee!

lol! Yay Myspace friends!

walker206 said:

I think that's one of the big points I'm trying to make. Unless you're trend-chasing, I think that if you truly have a book that's worthy of publication, it will eventually find a home.

I appreciated your comments, Toothpaste. I checked out your blog and website and was surprised to see that we're actually new Myspace friends! Eeee!

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Don't we all write books that we believe are worthy of publication? If not, and we write to make a living (or hope to) or most any other reason, then why write (unless it's just a hobby)?
Of course we have to write a book that agents and publishers will want to publish. That's the primary reason we do what we do. But it only starts with the writing of a worthy book. Thereafter, we must be of sound business mind to create all that's required to try and land an agent, and thereafter, create a proposal, and when needed a platform. We also should be promotion minded--how can we help publishers bring exposure to our book, and what can we do to try and increase sales?

What I'm suggesting is that in todays world of publishing we must perhaps "assume" that we are going to write a good book and spend a great deal of time--more than ever before--on ancilliary matters.