How many lines to a poem ?

[Steppe]

This comes about bacause of a post in the critiquing thread. The problem with trying to establishing a line count is that hardly no one will agree.

Why should a short poem of one line be rulled out but a long poem of a thousand lines or so be ok?

We can't even agree among us what the difference really is between prose and poetry all the time, so what of the length of the poem to qualify as a poem ?

[Writer???]

Of course no one will ever agree or come to any kind of consensus, have we ever, about anything?

But a single line of poetry has always struck me as more of a quote or something. A proverb or adage but not a poem. Though, according to definition, it is technically a poem.

MONOSTICH (MAHN -uh-stik)
A poem or epigram of a single metrical line.
(Compare Distich, Hemistich) from - http://www.poeticbyway.com/gl-m.html - emphasis mine

mon·o·stich [mon-uh-stik] –noun 1. a poem or epigram consisting of a single metrical line.
2. a single line of poetry.

[Origin: 1570–80; < LL monostichum < Gk monóstichon, n. use of neut. of monóstichos consisting of one line of verse. See mono-, stich] from - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Monostich

In the end it's all just opinion. As has been said many times, just take what you want, what helps you from a critique thread and ignore the rest. Who really cares what people on a forum say?

It's my opinion that the current state of the critique section (no rules, no guidlines, no limits, etc) has led it to become of little use anymore. When you have a front page that continualy has 2, 3, 4 poems each, by a couple of different users, and people generally not going beyond page one to look at poems for critique, and very few people critiquing in the first place, not a lot of quality feedback is going to take place for many people. All you can do is accept what you get, take from it what you want, and go on. Or, find another game.

[Writer???]

...ETA: My opinion is that it is not up to the reader to announce, "This is not poetry". Ever.

That is something I would totally agree with, unless the poster specifically asks, "Is this potery?"

[Gray Rose]

This is my 2c.

While we should perhaps never say that something is "not a poem," I think it is important to be aware that some genres are more controversial than others. For example, prose poems have been frequently discussed here in the past. Prose poetry is an established genre with anthologies, classics etc. And yet, a poet who posts a prose poem for critique should be emotionally ready to deal with comments of "This is too prosaic for my taste." In a similar vein, an author of minimalist poetry should be ready for comments of "There is not enough here, for my taste." If the poet is not ready for such comments, the poet should either a) write in a less controversial genre, or b) post in the chapbook section rather than in the critique section.

Also, I think, that a poet has a harder task if he/she is engaging with one of these genres. An author of a prose poem really does run a risk of being too prosaic. Likewise, an author of minimalist poetry risks not saying enough. That's why comments of any kind are important. The best thing to do is to thank the commenter for the crit and move on.

It is not as easy as it sounds. Personally I find it quite hard when my favorite critters do not get my poems. But after I am done feeling down I notice that these comments help me understand where the poem's weaknesses lie. It is a great help.

[Steppe]

In the bible when Moses ask God for his name, God replied, "I am that I am". Now admitting it is one of the most famous replies just about ever, it still stands as a poem in my mind. Very complete in itself.

I think that most would say that it depends on what the few words convey to us that matters most, not how many words or lines are used. To one it will be a poem, to another it won't.

Personaly I rarely bother with this. If it works, I'm ok. But I did, and still do, want your thoughts.

[Gray Rose]

In the bible when Moses ask God for his name, God replied, "I am that I am". Now admitting it is one of the most famous replies just about ever, it still stands as a poem in my mind. Very complete in itself.

Here's where I disagree with you. God's reply to Moses does not stand alone. First of all it is a reply, i.e a part of a dialog. Second, you have the larger context, which is Moses speaking to God.
If somebody were to post "I am that I am" on SYW right now, it wouldn't be nearly as striking, IMHO.

[Shweta]

Steppe, I'd love to contribute to this, but I may be coming into the wrog discussion. Was the comment that drew your attention more like "There's not enough here for my tastes" or "I have some issues with minimalism", or more like "This isn't poetry, poetry is longer"? I saw a thread where comments were more like the former, and I don't see the problem with that. But if you're dealing with the latter, then I can see why there needs to be a discussion but I missed the thread. So a link would be really appreciated!

[Steppe]

Steppe, I'd love to contribute to this, but I may be coming into the wrog discussion. Was the comment that drew your attention more like "There's not enough here for my tastes" or "I have some issues with minimalism", or more like "This isn't poetry, poetry is longer"? I saw a thread where comments were more like the former, and I don't see the problem with that. But if you're dealing with the latter, then I can see why there needs to be a discussion but I missed the thread. So a link would be really appreciated!

Shweta- It was not my intent to voice a displeasure with any one or their post. I should not have made reference to another post. I'm sorry I did. I have no issue with anyone!

So if that part of the OP could be overlooked, my question concerns just the part that questions the length of lines, or amount of words necessary to qualify as a poem.

[Steppe]

Here's where I disagree with you. God's reply to Moses does not stand alone. First of all it is a reply, i.e a part of a dialog. Second, you have the larger context, which is Moses speaking to God.
If somebody were to post "I am that I am" on SYW right now, it wouldn't be nearly as striking, IMHO.

If someone were to post;

I am
that I am

I would find that very powerful. Of course the history of it makes it far more so, I agree.

And as George Burns said of death, "Its been done before".

[Shweta]

Shweta- It was not my intent to voice a displeasure with any one or their post. I should not have made reference to another post. I'm sorry I did. I have no issue with anyone!

Meep! Sorry, didn't mean to be attacking. I'm just not sure we're on the same page wrt what we're talking about. I know you're not attacking anyone :Hug2:

I just don't want to mouth off about something that's totally different from what you're thinking about :)

[zegota]

Elegy

Who would I show it to?

---W.S. Merwin

Great one line poem, IMO. Was lucky enough to have Merwin give a lecture and reading out our school last semester.

[Gray Rose]

I am going to play the devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. Just FYI I think the poem can be any length, shape, and form as long as it works.

If someone were to post;

I am
that I am

I would find that very powerful.

This is two lines. Try that in a single line? Still the same?

Elegy

Who would I show it to?

---W.S. Merwin

Great one line poem, IMO.

Yes, but it wouldn't be the same without the title. This title doesn't just label, it is a part of the message. Without it, the poem would lose its meaning.

You see, I am hard-pressed to find a very powerful one-liner, though I would not be as pressed to find a powerful two-liner.

Now that I think of it, one of my best poems is a two-liner (not that anybody else would think so, but still).

[Dichroic]

I think it's valid to say "there's not enough meat here for me," as long as you're not being absolute about rules like number of lines.

Personal anecdote, and I'll leave out the name but I think it may be obvious anyway. (I don't mind being obvious when I'm being complimentary.) There's at least one critter here who has said over and over, "Minimalism doesn't usually work for me" and "There's just not enough meaning here," until I started wondering why said person even bothered to comment on works in that genre. UNTIL I saw a response from them to a particularly powerful piece or two that said something like "I don't usually like minimalism but this is incredible." And now, far from just ignoring that critter's opinions, I'm likely to consider them as a marker for the best work in that genre.

I do think that with extreme minimalism as with forms like haiku or sonnet which are really older versions of the same challenge, the point is not to play into the form but to transcend it. If you haven't done that, gotten in more meaning than the number of words would seem to allow, then IMO you may have an entertaining piece but it won't be a great one.

[Dichroic]

You see, I am hard-pressed to find a very powerful one-liner, though I would not be as pressed to find a powerful two-liner.

Rose, I guess it depends what you call a line. It's multiple lines, but ee cummings's

1(a

le
af
fa
ll

s)
one
l

iness

is only four words.

[Jenny]

I've wondered about this one for ages. In fact there's a book somewhere that collects really, really short, and excellent, poems -- and drat that I've forgotten the name. The book convinced me that short poems -- even one liners -- are poems just because of the effect they had on me.

My attempt:

3 am. Awake. Alone.

[William Haskins]

a poem should have as many lines as the poet believes are necessary to complete the idea he or she set forth to convey.

[Steppe]

I believe Oxford has a book of short poems that can be found on Amazon. I was going to buy it but bought so many others ,I'll have to wait till next month.

[Jenny]

That's the one! Thanks for jogging my mind. It was a library borrow and I forgot to scribble down title and editor. Oxford Book of Short Poems. When I saw the shell on the cover -- memory returned.

[maggi]

Ditto

[moblues]

a poem should have as many lines as the poet believes are necessary to complete the idea he or she set forth to convey.


Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner. Sorry for coming to the party late. Found this while searching for the elusive minimalism workshop. I'm told it exists. I think I'll have better luck searching for jackrabbits in Naperville (NW suburb of IL).




Mike