Can I read it?

[azbikergirl]

I've mentioned to nearly everyone I know that I'm working on a novel and hope to change careers eventually to write full time. Invariably, people ask me to let them read my manuscript. I naively sent it to a few friends, expecting them to actually read it. They didn't. Always had something to do, will get around to it this weekend, oops, maybe next weekend...

Now, when people ask me to let them read it, I either don't respond or I tell them flat out no.

Does this happen to you? Do you let them read it? What do you say?

[MacAllister]

azbiker--with the exception of my crit group, I don't let anyone read what I'm working on til it's done. I sort of feel like it sucks energy out of actually writing, and that reading the thing incomplete is doing it an injustice, anyway. :)

Tell 'em to wait til it has a cover on it. :)

[jules]

Occasionally. Anyone who writes themselves, I let them read it. Other writers' feedback is often useful. A couple of good friends whose opinions I trust. Everyone else I tell them they'll have to wait until it's finished. Of course what I'm not telling them is that it won't be finished 'till it's on the shelves...

[maestrowork]

I try not to let anyone read my first draft. My crit group has read some, but now I kind of back off from showing them first draft as well.

[katiemac]

As posted in another thread, no one has read even one word of what I'm writing. I don't even like writing around people, lest they would somehow read over my shoulder, or just accidentally glance over.

I don't even know if I want people I know in the real world reading it when it's finished, as bizarre as that sounds. I'd rather be success to strangers than my family and friends. Which means, when it's time for beta readers I'm going to have to look for some folks around these parts who have the time and ability to give me a hand.

[BlueTexas]

I've only had one request, and they actually did read it. No useful feedback, though.

But when people find out I write, they think I should know something useful to tell them or know someone useful to hook them up with. I send them to the UJ thread. It always strikes me as the same thing as thinking a gas station employee will know the oil ministers in foreign countries...do they think writers have this special hook-up club? I've been at it for years and I know one useful person, and I'm not about to make him mad, lol!

[HConn]

People who say "I'd love to read your work!" are just being polite. You can either tell them "It's not ready to show," or you can send them a copy.

But if you do, just forget about it. Don't expect them to read it or to give opinions. They were just being polite.

[wurdwise]

HConn, that's exactly what i was thinking.

[Ella]

People who say "I'd love to read your work!" are just being polite. You can either tell them "It's not ready to show," or you can send them a copy.

But if you do, just forget about it. Don't expect them to read it or to give opinions. They were just being polite.


If I say to someone I'd like to read their stuff, it's because I honestly do. I find other people's writing a fascinating look at another side of them that you would not normally see. If it sucks, well, choose something good to say something positive about, and maybe one point to suggest improvements, and after that, drop it.
I'm sure some people do say things just to be polite. If these people are close to you, you should be able to tell if they're sincere or not. If they're not close to you, then probably won't be insulted by a 'no, it's not ready'.
(Though I did lose a friend of seven years because she didn't like what I had to say about her writing. Ah well. The friendship was obviously not that important.)

I also don't let anyone other than a critique group see my work until I feel it's mostly 'finished'. But some of the feedback while in the early stages, from these select few readers, has been great. I'm not sure I could write gobs and gobs without knowing that the writing isn't out to lunch.

Speaking of lunch...

[zeprosnepsid]

Yeah, I read a lot of other people's work. Screenplays, Novels, etc... And I give lengthy feedback. So when I offer to read something I do.

But here's the thing. It can take a while. I might not read it that week. But I will read it.

So be patient with your friends. They do have other things to do. And in a lot of cases they will read it when they can.

[zornhau]

I generally say I'd like to use them as test readers later on, so don't want to use them up early, which is more or less true.

I have a handful of friends I do show stuff to because they read in my target genre and are able to spot my bad bloopers before I show the material to the crit group.

[Anatole Ghio]

I don't mind showing my writing to other people. I do it fully expecting not to get valuable feedback in terms of writing criticism, but to ping whether it connects with the average reader.

As far as getting false encouragement for showing your stuff around, offer to show them your writing and then drop the subject. If they mention it again on their own, they are interested.

Once you give them your writing, again never bring it up. If they mention it on their own and want to talk about it, and they like it, you've probably found yourself a beta reader.

Congratulations.

[zornhau]

Once you give them your writing, again never bring it up. If they mention it on their own and want to talk about it, and they like it, you've probably found yourself a beta reader.


Actually, I'd go further: don't talk about your writing at all except with other writers:

unless you have some success to validate it
somebody else mentions it first, or questions their way to it.
you need to explain the time you spend on it.
In the last two cases, you should mutter something about creative writing and then turn the the conversation back on them: "What about you? Do you have a hobby or obsession?" If they're really interested, they'll cross-question you later. The last thing you want is to come across as somebody who wraps themselves in an unearned Writer's Mantle.

[veinglory]

I only get proofreading and comments for other writers online. I once offered to read for a friend and immediatley found that I didn't like the book much -- which left me making excuses. If you do want comments from friends start by giving them a single chapter. That, they can cope with. Take any criticism with good grace and you may be able to develop a critiquing relationship from there.

[oswann]

I am also cagey about letting a WIP out. I don't think it helps and like most I think it possibly hinders advancing the story. Any comments by people along the way, unless you ask for them, cannot avoid being absorbed. This means that you sit down to attack the next bit and the nosy, albeit well intentioned, friends comments seep into your head and you start double guessing yourself. I'm not as detached to comments as Anatole.

Asking for opinions is an entirely different matter. You have put yourself into a position of considering advice. Of course if you let someone read the WIP this is effectively what you are doing if you like it or not. Remember that it is in progress.

Beta readers at the end of first drafts are again a different kettle of fish.



Os.

[Anatole Ghio]

I agree about not letting someone see a WIP, especially if they are not a writer. However, once I'm done with a piece, I have no problem letting someone see my work if I feel they might be into my writing style.

About not talking about writing at all... I agree partially. To many people, writing is just a hobby for someone else. To them, if you started talking about the in's and out's of the creative process, it will come off the same as someone walking up and tallking about Nasscar or Knitting... not relevant.

However, if I have some other reason to mention writing and it does not involve writing itself, writing is only the backdrop to some other story I want to convey, then I have no problem talking about writing, as what I will be saying will have nothing to do with the technical details about writing, and more about some character interest story I am about to convey.

Fact of the matter, though, writing is pretty dull as far as providing interesting stories... in fact, the more time I spend writing, the less time I spend out in the world, gathering human interest stories... damn, I need to get out more!!!

[zornhau]

Fact of the matter, though, writing is pretty dull as far as providing interesting stories... in fact, the more time I spend writing, the less time I spend out in the world, gathering human interest stories... damn, I need to get out more!!!


Find somewhere unlikely but feasible to write - e.g. a biker bar. Don't make a fuss, just buy a coffee and tuck yourself away on the corner. After 6-8 months you'll know most of the regulars and hear all sorts of stories...

[oswann]

Also, as for most of the arts, people who don't practice have the impression that artists (creators, be it writers musician, painters et al.) are in a constant state of creativity. Like walking about in beautiful cloud of detachement between the glorious moments of letting the creatively flow forth through our chosen means. 'No I'm sorry I can't talk to you normally or do some normal person thing, you must understand, I'm an artist.'

No-one really believes that it requires countless hours and days and weeks to form the few precious seconds of pure creativity into something comprehensible and tangible. This is the real art to it.


Os

[Liam Jackson]

A question for those of you involved in the WIP conversation...
How many beta readers do you typically solicit, and/or do you perscribe to the notion of the "ideal reader"?

[veinglory]

I use 1-3 beta-reader per manuscript. It works best if they are writers and in the same genre as me.

[zornhau]

A question for those of you involved in the WIP conversation...
How many beta readers do you typically solicit, and/or do you perscribe to the notion of the "ideal reader"?

I have
-1 regular beta reader who reads in my genre, and knows a lot about war and technology.
-1 crit partner whose scripts I pick at
-1 writers crit group (about 8 people)

When the manuscript's ready for off, I'll test it on a couple of non-genre mates to see if they understand any of it....

[arkady]

I don't mind showing my writing to other people. I do it fully expecting not to get valuable feedback in terms of writing criticism, but to ping whether it connects with the average reader.

As far as getting false encouragement for showing your stuff around, offer to show them your writing and then drop the subject. If they mention it again on their own, they are interested.

Once you give them your writing, again never bring it up. If they mention it on their own and want to talk about it, and they like it, you've probably found yourself a beta reader.

All true. Too many people don't bother to use their friends as beta readers because they won't get objective feedback. And it's true -- they won't. But friends' reactions to the work can be useful nevertheless, in determining, as you say, "whether it connects with the average reader."

[DeadlyAccurate]

I have a couple of casual writer friends, but they aren't as willing to read my stuff as I am to read theirs. Kind of upsetting to go to the trouble and not get that help returned. No one but me has read more than a few chapters of my latest novel, because I don't feel comfortable asking people to read my book without being able to return the favor, so I don't ask non-writers at all.

[azbikergirl]

I tend to only agree to let people read it who are willing to give me honest feedback, even if it's something they think I don't want to hear. If they're only interested in reading for pleasure, they can wait until it's available on the shelf. The problem is, some people who read for pleasure aren't able to articulate what they feel is lacking in fiction. My brother is one. He'd like to read my story, but we both know I'll bug him to tell me what he thought the weak parts were, and he doesn't feel qualified to do that. So I end up feeling "gyped." :D

[zornhau]

The problem is, some people who read for pleasure aren't able to articulate what they feel is lacking in fiction. :D

They can point out glaring plot holes, though. That can be a real life saver.

[pepperlandgirl]

I have one regular beta, but I regularly solicit help from other people, depending on the project and what I need. The regular beta is great because she loves everything I write, except when she doesn't, and tells me on no uncertain terms.

[brinkett]

They can point out glaring plot holes, though. That can be a real life saver.
That's why I have beta readers--to see if they find any plot holes and/or errors in characterization. The nit-picky stuff I can find myself during subsequent reads/edits.

I had four betas for my first manuscript. I learned that apart from obvious errors, it's all subjective. You should never take one beta reader's opinion as gospel.

[BlueTexas]

I tend to only agree to let people read it who are willing to give me honest feedback, even if it's something they think I don't want to hear. If they're only interested in reading for pleasure, they can wait until it's available on the shelf. The problem is, some people who read for pleasure aren't able to articulate what they feel is lacking in fiction. My brother is one. He'd like to read my story, but we both know I'll bug him to tell me what he thought the weak parts were, and he doesn't feel qualified to do that. So I end up feeling "gyped." :D

Exactly. An "I liked it" isn't as helpful as "I liked it, but...."

[arrowqueen]

Wait till it comes out and make them buy it!

[Julie Worth]

Invariably, people ask me to let them read my manuscript. I naively sent it to a few friends, expecting them to actually read it. They didn't.


I’ve several beta readers who give me useful feedback. This is partly because I give them the work in paperback, rather than as a manuscript. Regular human beings have little experience with double spaced courier, and most don’t like it.

[azbikergirl]

What do you mean, 'in paperback?'

[Julie Worth]

I mean a 6x9 trade paperback from Lulu. And it's about the same cost as printing out a standard MS.

[Darkhaven80]

I've mentioned to nearly everyone I know that I'm working on a novel and hope to change careers eventually to write full time. Invariably, people ask me to let them read my manuscript. I naively sent it to a few friends, expecting them to actually read it. They didn't. Always had something to do, will get around to it this weekend, oops, maybe next weekend...

Now, when people ask me to let them read it, I either don't respond or I tell them flat out no.

Does this happen to you? Do you let them read it? What do you say?


I was proud to finish a few chapters back when I was an unmotivated teenager. (I'm still not motivated but at least I made it to adulthood :thankyou: ) I eagerly showed these to my mother, who was in the middle of a movie and said she'd read it later. One week went by and I noticed it hadn't moved, but she'd obviously put her coffee on it and it now had a nice decorative ring. Another week goes by and I just take it away lol

I think it's common where people are weary of reading unpublished writers works for some reason

[katiemac]

I’ve several beta readers who give me useful feedback. This is partly because I give them the work in paperback, rather than as a manuscript. Regular human beings have little experience with double spaced courier, and most don’t like it.

Julie, what you've said is intriguing, but I don't quite understand. If you're giving them a Lulu paperback, isn't your novel already published? And so if it's already published, isn't the use of a beta a bit delayed? My confusion could be from my limited knowledge on how Lulu works, but I was under the impression you wouldn't be able to change what was written once published with them, like any other publishing company.

[BlueTexas]

Lulu is just a printer. They don't pretend to be anything else. They do sell optional ISBN's. You can choose whether or not to have your book for sale on the site; if not, I believe it's still considered unpublished, as all they did was print a copy.

[Julie Worth]

Julie, what you've said is intriguing, but I don't quite understand. If you're giving them a Lulu paperback, isn't your novel already published? And so if it's already published, isn't the use of a beta a bit delayed? My confusion could be from my limited knowledge on how Lulu works, but I was under the impression you wouldn't be able to change what was written once published with them, like any other publishing company.

When you buy an ISBN, that’s when you get locked in. Before that you can change it all you want. You can have an edition of one book! On one of my novels, I’m up to something like 40 editions.

There’s little marketing at lulu, but for this purpose, that’s not important. What’s important is speed and control. You can put out a new edition in minutes, and you can control everything about the book, even the cover. If you’re artistically savvy, you can do some dynamite things there, especially now that you can do full wrap arounds. My experience is that the cover has a lot to do with getting people to start reading. After that, it’s up to the text to keep them going.

Lulu is just a printer.
Actually, they’re not. Their specialty is providing the interface between author and printer (presently ColorCentric).

[maestrowork]

You can mark a "book" as "unpublished -- not available for sale" at Lulu. So Lulu can be used as sort of a better, cheaper "Kinko's." I think as long as you don't make your book available to the public, it's not considered "published."

And yes, you can change it anytime and any way you want -- it's called a new "edition." Again, as long as you keep the book "unpublished," you can do what you want with it.

[Julie Worth]

And yes, you can change it anytime and any way you want -- it's called a new "edition." Again, as long as you keep the book "unpublished," you can do what you want with it.

It’s more flexible than that. You can make it available to the public, or only to yourself, or only through a direct link—that’s just toggling a button—and you can still put out new editions. As long as you don’t buy an ISBN, that is.

[maestrowork]

But once you make it "available" to public, you've published it. So beware.

[Julie Worth]

But once you make it "available" to public, you've published it. So beware.

Probably no one would know it if you did. In any case, the chance of actually selling a book through the lulu site is minimal. Fiction, anyway.

[maestrowork]

Probably no one would know it if you did. In any case, the chance of actually selling a book through the lulu site is minimal. Fiction, anyway.


I wouldn't chance it. All it takes is for one person to buy it... I would suggest anyone who is interested in using Lulu as a "printer" keep the book "unavailable."

[LightShadow]

My only reader is my number one critic. My wife. Nobody else cares enough about my pre-published work to read it, and everybody else says, "ah, that's good." But my wife says, "this part sucks, I like what you did here, too passive there, this character doesn't advance the story, etc." Other people want to coddle. I want the straight dope, and she's not afraid to criticize me, which is exactly what I need. Before you give out your manuscript to anyone, make sure they not only love to read, but will give it to you straight on what's up.

[PattiTheWicked]

My husband is a great beta reader, simply because he doesn't read much at all. He takes a very technical and analytical approach to it, and will always point out to me, "Well, this doesn't make any sense here, does it?" or "This dialogue isn't really how people talk." It's useful to me, because it shows me how someone completely unfamiliar with commercial fiction might interpret my work.

I just leave a few pages in the bathroom every couple of days, with a red pen, and I know I'll get feedback.

[maestrowork]

Make sure you get red marks, not brown...

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Ewwwww...

[PattiTheWicked]

Make sure you get red marks, not brown...

:::thud:::

[Darkhaven80]

I never let anyone read a first-first draft. Never had and don't see myself ever being able to. In fact, just the thought of it makes me shiver :Shrug: I haven't let anyone look at my writing in a few years - even those closest to me don't even know the plot of the novel I'm working on. Just takes some of the pizazz out of it, would rather let them see the finished product. This is for friends and family, though - I don't belong to a critique group or anything, so that doesn't apply here.

[SRHowen]

No one could read my first drafts--I don't use spell check until after I type "the end" --and I sometimes make notes as I am writing (in bold)--things like "Come back here, describe giant bear" and go on. So my first drafts make little sense to anyone.

And I have a trusted group of people who I let read and crit my stuff. My hubby is not one of them.

[LightShadow]

My wife reads my first drafts. She understands that the novel will change with time, but her feed-back helps me make those adjustments.

[Thekherham]

I used to let friends and family members read my stories when I was young and much more naive, and invariably they would find my writing wonderful... or great... or, hey, I like this stuff, when I knew darn well it wasn't gfreat or wonderful.
Now, not even my wife gets to read anything I write.

[triceretops]

The real problem will be finding someone who I can trust and admire. There are quite a few gifted individuals here at AW, but I would be a little shy to ask them. I'm nearly finished so I will need some throw-back-in-my-face comments. I might just go the the share your work thread and try it there.


Triceratops

[Lisamer]

You also have to factor in the "take it from where it came," concept. For example, I deplore the excessive use of dialogue tage, especially when it's obvious whose talking. I have a friend who stopped reading what I sent her because every line wasn't tag. However, she also won't read Shakespeare because there are too many "thees and thous."

Last summer, when my husband performed in Travels with My Aunt, there were five men performing multiple roles. Their acting was so proficient that it was obvious as to who was playing who, but not to my friend.

The gender issue also comes into play. In my current piece, I'm considering having my main character turn out to be the daughter of the woman her father had an affair with. (speaking of travels with my aunt, ;))
Women seem to like it, men say "gag me!"

[CaptMorgan]

For years, I refused to let anyone read my manuscripts. Finally, I realized if I was really going to publish a book, that someone might have to read it somewhere along the way. I started to let my mother read them first, and she always said something along the lines of "It's good." Well, brilliant, Mommy thinks it's good, and I appreciate that, but everyone knows Mom won't ever tell her kid his/her writing sucks. I finally got the guts to let an avid reader (and writer) look at a first draft manuscript. This was a big step for me. While she was a nice person, she was also notoriously honest and, as a first draft, I knew the manuscript was far from perfect...but having my friend read it was one of the best things that could have happened for my writing. While she gave compliments, she also helped me to realize my biggest mistakes. I always assume the writer knows as much about my characters as I do, which tends to cloud the story. After that, I began to attend a Writers Group...but I'm moving, so I'll have to find another.

[LightShadow]

You've got to allow others to read your manuscripts. It just has to be individuals that are willing to tell you it's crap, if it is.

[Diane]

Orson Scott Card* has some very good advice on how to train a beta reader out of a non-writer in the back of How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy. (I am 98.5% certain it was that one, at any rate.) He gives you the sorts of questions you should ask them about the novel or story or whatever, if they put it down at any point why did they put it down, that sort of thing. Your readers don't have to become writing experts! You just help them along to articulate the reactions they're having and why (like, the main character makes them sleepy and they always nap when she's on-stage).


* I don't want to start an OSC thrash -- I could thrash with the best of them (well, maybe the second-tier, at any rate), but not here.

[Julie Worth]

... if they put it down at any point why did they put it down...

I have a very good beta reader. She dog-ears the page before she throws my ms against the wall.

[Bufty]

I expose my ignorance, but what is the difference between Alpha and Beta readers, apart from the obvious that one reads before the other? Does one expect a different type of response from each?

[Rock]

The best thing to do is find someone that WILL read it and give you and HONEST opinion - of course make sure that person reads the genre you are writing. If you give it out to "friends" that want to read it, keep checking on them and they will eventually get a guilt feeling and read it or give it back. For anyone else that wants to read it, ask them up front - When can I expect it back and will you be honest in your review? Do it like a business deal - set deadlines - if they react to this, then they most likely are not that interested. Or - you can just say - When I have my first book signing, you can be first in line!
www.ReynoldsTheWriter.com

[BenMears]

Well, brilliant, Mommy thinks it's good, and I appreciate that, but everyone knows Mom won't ever tell her kid his/her writing sucks.

I am quite sure that if I were to ask my mother for an opinion of something I wrote, she would not be at all shy about saying that it wasn't any good. What's highly unlikely is that she would say anything else, so this exception only proves the rule about mothers being poor test readers.