Orginality Question

[TypoSlayer]

Not sure if this question should go here. Feel free to move it :D


Ok. An MS of mine is about a boy who summons a demon. I finished the 1st draft, thinking I got the summoning and how the demon behaves down good enough.... But no. I ask my friend, who is a very blunt, honest aspiring editor to read it. And guess what? She rightfully said it was too closely related to the 3rd book of the Bartimaeus trilogy. Ouch. Now I'm trying to make up my oen completely (or close enough.) orginal way to do the summoning and how the demon behaves. But i've hit a road block. What I want to know is what ways have demon summonings been done before, so I know what to avoid. Thanks in advance! :D

[underthecity]

I'm sitting here trying to think of how to answer your question, and nothing comes to mind. You'd have to go to the bookstore and look through the horror section, I suppose. I'm not sure that any one person could be familiar with every horror novel that's ever been written about demon summoning, and remember how each one was done.

Try again to come up with a totally original way. Then ask your editor friend if it seems familiar.

allen

[Seif]

Have you tried seeking those with knowledge?

It is difficult to answer this questions without any information relating to your MC or to the context.

However, read up on religious material about demons and demon summoning.

There are dances, incantations, ritualistic killings, offerings or by fulfilling a prophecy/breaking a magic spell by doing something (rubbing the lamp for the Genie) etc.

I'm sure there are many ways to do this, but don't just try to be original, the story and the characters must be intriguing and comprehensive. I know a lot of people that focus on being so original that they lose focus on what they're trying to achieve.

And remember, there really aren't any 'originals' out there, everything has been copied or inspired by something or another (think: religion).

Hope this helps friend,

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's how to get an answer to your question: Summon a demon and ask him.

Here's how to summon a demon: On the 3rd of April (sorry, too late for this year; work on another book in the meantime) at 12:06 a.m. precisely (Scranton local time--don't ask me why but demons all set their watches to Scranton time) you must eat a peanut butter sandwich while not thinking of sheep. Shortly afterwards a demon will appear, though you won't recognize him as a demon. You can ask that demon any question and the demon will ignore you. But afterwards you'll figure out the answer for yourself.

That's how to summon a demon, and how demons behave.

[ReneC]

Here's how to summon a demon: On the 3rd of April (sorry, too late for this year; work on another book in the meantime) at 12:06 a.m. precisely (Scranton local time--don't ask me why but demons all set their watches to Scranton time) you must eat a peanut butter sandwich while not thinking of sheep. Shortly afterwards a demon will appear, though you won't recognize him as a demon. You can ask that demon any question and the demon will ignore you. But afterwards you'll figure out the answer for yourself.

See, I wish I'd known that before I tried to summon a demon. I had jelly on my peanut butter sandwich, which probably explains why I have a poltergeist haunting my bathroom now.

[Seaclusion]

Uncle Jim's subtle answer to your question is to summon your demon any way you want. If it works in your story and you tell it well, then it is good.

Richard

[Shweta]

Disclaimer: I'm not disagreeing with Uncle Jim's advice here :) But I'd say if the first response is "this sounds like Bartimaeus" then you're not making it your own. And part of that is probably not having a sense of the scope of the field. Which all leads to....

1) If your demon sounds like Bartimaeus you're not writing horror.
2) Check out other (similar) YA fantasy and possibly adult urban fantasy. Not just demon-summoning but also dealing with the fey or ghosts or other supernatural critters -- there are similarities you don't want to tread on.
My suggestion on how to go this best: Look up the Bartimaeus books on Amazon.com. Scroll down to "People who bought this book also bought" and look through those. Pick up a few books (ideally at an indy bookstore that supports writers ) and read.
3) Suggestions off the top of my head: Tim Powers, The Anubis Gates; Kim Harrison, Dead Witch Walking; Patricia Briggs, When Demons Walk; Naomi Kritzer's Freedom trilogy; Peter S. Beagle, Tamsin; Susanna Clarke, Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell or if you cannot deal with the length, The Ladies of Grace Aideu.
3) Read some Terry Pratchett (Good Omens and FaustEric are good starts for demon stuff). Also pick up Diana Wynne Jones' Tough Guide to Fantasyland and look up the DEMONS entry. Do not do what you'll find in these books; they are parody. They are making fun of the cliches. They are an awesome place to find out what the cliches are, though :)
4) If you can find a bookstore with an occult section, go there. Look at demon stuff. Also look at white magic for summoning angels -- more or less the same ideas but less secretive. Yes, I know, if you're anything like me you'll feel silly. But you'll find gems that give you awesome spin-off story ideas.
5) Read Diana Hignutt's magick thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18583) in SF/F.

[job]

When we read mostly fiction, and mostly the books everyone else is reading,
(and I'm not saying you do this,)
we may find ourselves influenced by the same old same old. This makes our work recognizably derivative.

If we move ever so slightly outside this accustomed and well-beaten path ...
the work may not be more original but at least it'll be derivative in a new and exciting way.

How did a priest of Mithras summon a demon? What kind of demon did he expect to see?
Or a Japanese king in 1580? Or an aborigine in Australia in 1890? Or a Voodoun in New Orleans in 1930? Or an Aztec priest? Or a tribesman in the upper Amazon? Or a Yoruba healer?

This is where you get off the internet --
which is going to have only the tediously familiar stuff --
and go to a University library.

Look into the antrhopology section for demons, witchdraft and summoning spells..

[dirtsider]

I second going to the occult section of your local bookstore. One title that comes to mind is Cryptopedia. Also check the folklore/mythology section, particularly the Middle Eastern/Persian folklore.

Also go to old/2nd hand bookstores for both occult and folklore/mythology titles.

[Shweta]

When we read mostly fiction, and mostly the books everyone else is reading,
(and I'm not saying you do this,)
we may find ourselves influenced by the same old same old.
I actually find that most of the people writing same-old haven't read enough, or widely enough in the field. Again, not saying the OP does this, just making a general comment. What happens then is that someone does a bunch of research (assuming they do research :tongue) on a topic that someone else researched a little while ago.
Which is why I think reading stellar examples in the field is as important as non-fiction research. Not saying that every example I gave was stellar :D but several of 'em are.

ETA: I guess I'm not disagreeing with you. Since the people who read a lot of fiction aren't reading the books everyone else is reading. But I really do notice (at least in fantasy) that there are Authors that Writers Read. So that if, for example, you are at a convention and you talk to a professional and to a reader/fan, that pro generally has a different set of "of course we all read her" names than the fan. And those are the names you want to be familiar with. The obvious example is Robert Jordan, who thought John M Ford was the best writer (then) alive. (He may have been right; I don't feel that I've read widely enough to say). But when I went to a con the weekend after Ford died, I was surrounded by Robert Jordan fans who had never heard of Ford.

[Constantine K]

Do the unexpected. Maybe lose the ritual aspect altogether? No candles, no salt, no geometric symbols. Make the act of summoning the demon original and unexpected.

[Shweta]

Do the unexpected. Maybe lose the ritual aspect altogether? No candles, no salt, no geometric symbols. Make the act of summoning the demon original and unexpected.
Well, except that's done too. Far too often that leads to bad pseudo-shamanism. Please for crying out loud people, if you want to write shamanism, read about it first. And not from fiction either :)

I specifically mentioned Naomi Kritzer above because she has a wonderfully original way of doing the summoning, and it's something that might spark other interesting ideas for the OP.

[job]

I actually find that most of the people writing same-old haven't read enough, or widely enough in the field. .

A good idea is to read the best in one's genre, and to read the best books OUTSIDE the genre, and to read good writing to learn what to do and to read bad writing to learn what not to do ...

What is to be avoided is reading narrowly and exclusively in the mid-range of a single genre. And TV. Just turn the bloody set off. It's death to original thought.


... What happens then is that someone does a bunch of research (assuming they do research :tongue) on a topic that someone else researched a little while ago. .

You get this. The minute you've finished your 'mermaid who turns into a werewolf and was betrayed by her college sweetheart' manuscript, by golly, there's a 'mermaid who turns into a werewolf ...' book on the shelves.


JoB

[Momento Mori]

James D. Macdonald:
Here's how to summon a demon: On the 3rd of April (sorry, too late for this year; work on another book in the meantime) at 12:06 a.m. precisely (Scranton local time--don't ask me why but demons all set their watches to Scranton time) you must eat a peanut butter sandwich while not thinking of sheep. Shortly afterwards a demon will appear, though you won't recognize him as a demon. You can ask that demon any question and the demon will ignore you. But afterwards you'll figure out the answer for yourself.


I hate to disagree with Uncle Jim, but that's how you summon lawyers, not demons. And they charge you 500 dollars for the initial consultation with payment up front if they're considering stealing your soul.

MM

[WannabeWriter]

I think the best chance to be original comes after reading many books of the genre and knowing what has been mostly written and what hasn't.

[JeanneTGC]

Remember that there are no new ideas under the sun. The Bible covered most of them, and anything the Biblical writers missed, Shakespeare got.

As Shweta said, make it your own.

Also, there's no shame in being compared to something else. "Too much like" is in the eye of the beholder.

We're the sum of our experiences, and some of those experiences will be reading what someone else has written. But it's how we filter it and put it onto the page that makes it different from what's come before. Focus on writing the best story you can, with the characters and plots and things that interest you.

[TPCSWR]

anything the Biblical writers missed, Shakespeare got.


Or copied.

[Appalachian Writer]

Remember that there are no new ideas under the sun. The Bible covered most of them, and anything the Biblical writers missed, Shakespeare got.

As Shweta said, make it your own.

Also, there's no shame in being compared to something else. "Too much like" is in the eye of the beholder.

We're the sum of our experiences, and some of those experiences will be reading what someone else has written. But it's how we filter it and put it onto the page that makes it different from what's come before. Focus on writing the best story you can, with the characters and plots and things that interest you.

How very wise you are, Oh Great One! :D Good advice to all.

[James D. Macdonald]

I wouldn't recommend doing your research in other people's novels. Do your research in textbooks, histories, and primary sources. (I favor Seligman's History of Magic, Supernaturalism, and Religion as a starting point.)

It's painfully obvious when you run into a regency romance if the author's research consisted only of reading Georgette Heyer.

[Shweta]

I wouldn't recommend doing your research in other people's novels.
No, nor would I, as I think you mean it.
But one of the biggest issues I see cropping up on the (fiction part of the) boards, time and again (especially in SYW), is that people don't read fiction widely, in and out of their field, and have no idea of the other people writing things similar to theirs. They end up with work that reads as derivative when it's not.
So. Seems to me it's useful to know, if only so that one does not tread too close. Especially if one is writing about demon summoning and hopes to give it a new spin -- I think that's wonderfully ambitious, it's the sort of thing I like to read -- but not if I get the sense the author does not know what else has been written.

Though I'd also get annoyed if I had the sense that my piddly research into occultism was more than an author writing about demon sumoning had done :)

[Feathers]

Honestly, if you want to know about demon possession and exorcism, I suggest you read the gospel section of the Bible. Jesus threw out a lot of demons. None of it involved tying the victims down to beds and dabbing then with holy water, but a lot of the demons did throw a fit when they saw Him coming.

-Feathers

[TrickyFiction]

Jesus threw out a lot of demons.

I don't recall him summoning any, though. I think all his tactics were meant to drive them away.

Solomon, however, was supposed to work particularly well with the lil' guys. Even had a few in his permanent employ. Try looking at the folklore, as others have suggested. You're bound to get a few ideas from the old stories, if you dig deep enough.

[Paichka]

I hate to disagree with Uncle Jim, but that's how you summon lawyers, not demons. And they charge you 500 dollars for the initial consultation with payment up front if they're considering stealing your soul.

MM

Is it really? So once I graduate law school I'm going to develop an uncontrollable craving for PB&J sandwiches and be able to charge 500 bucks an hour???

That's hot.

[Mr Flex]

You could always call 1-800-DEMON..

In the same way you cannot invent a new word, not one that can be popular anyway. There are 26 letters in the alphabet and there are rules.

So, let's conversate!

You can't think of anything new,it's impossible, just basterdise, or manipulate, the information you have already gleaned from your existance. Whether that be consciously, or subconsciously.

Oh sh-t.. the cautionary tale.

I wrote a song once, it took me a very long time. It was funky, it was hot!
I used to DJ, in the club I worked at, when I played the instrumental the crowd would go nuts. It was a wicked tune.

One night, my housemate came in drunk. I was working and I had the chorus looping, just adding some finishing touches. With her drunk self, she started singing along! A difficult task, bearing in mind, the vocal hadn't been put down yet. She sang, Boyz II Men, End of the road. I downloaded, the MIDI file from the internet. The notes were exactly the same.

Bearing in mind the number of emty beer cans on my desk. That's all I have to say about that!

[WittyandorIronic]

Is it really? So once I graduate law school I'm going to develop an uncontrollable craving for PB&J sandwiches and be able to charge 500 bucks an hour???

That's hot.

Uber Hawtness, actually. ;)


This is where you get off the internet --
which is going to have only the tediously familiar stuff --
and go to a University library.

I don't understand this. Those words. I know those words, but have never heard them uttered in that way...formed so strangely. "Get...off...the...internet..."??? Is that possible? How does one go about that? And do you mean to tell me the sum total of the worlds collective knowledge is NOT contained in the hallowed electro-halls of the interwebz?!?! What madness!!

:D In all seriousness, I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of research for my regency romance novel (no Heyer-ite here, I swear) and though I do have many links online that I rely on for good information, I have many books that I rely on as well. More so, because at least there is an expectation of vetting to get published.

[job]

"Get...off...the...internet..."??? Is that possible? ...

In all seriousness, I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of research for my regency romance novel (no Heyer-ite here, I swear) and though I do have many links online that I rely on for good information, I have many books that I rely on as well.

Regency people include some of the most careful historians.

It is not just that information on the net is likely to be wrong.
(I would not necessarily try to steer someone toward an accurate spell for summoning demons.)
It is that the information on the net is so bloody limited.

If you want original,
do not seek it among the 30,000 repetitions of same old same old on the net.

This is especially true for someone who doesn't know the subject and who cannot, therefore, use the more scholarly resources of the web to good advantage.