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William Haskins
05-04-2008, 04:24 AM
The presidential hopeful (Hillary Clinton) urged a group of her supporters in Louisville Thursday to put their money on the filly, Eight Belles.
The field of 20 horses was galloping out around the first turn at Churchill Downs when Eight Belles suddenly went down on both front legs and jockey Gabriel Saez slid off.

An equine ambulance reached her on the track and put Eight Belles down. and the clincher:

Filly Eight Belles finished second behind favorite Big Brown in the Kentucky Derby on Saturday, then collapsed with two broken front ankles and was euthanized after crossing the wire.

whistlelock
05-04-2008, 04:34 AM
you know, strangely I have more faith in omens than I do in polls.

is that weird?

brokenfingers
05-04-2008, 04:37 AM
I wonder how she knew they were gonna drug that horse up to run til it broke its own legs?

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 04:39 AM
no one suspected the drugs on her tongue as she french-kissed the horse for the cameras.

A.M. Wildman
05-04-2008, 04:48 AM
no one suspected the drugs on her tongue as she french-kissed the horse for the cameras.

That was a horse? I thought it was Bill without the makeup.

small axe
05-04-2008, 05:08 AM
I feel very sad about that poor horse, though. I said a little prayer for mercy ... mercy that she didn't suffer much (because animals hurt just like people hurt; it's not like Pain is some sort of higher intellect function that horses don't have) ... but mostly for mercy for us.

All those innocent creatures want is to run and be happy running around in fields ... and people make them endanger themselves for sport.

Sometimes the world sucks. Too often it is because of humanity's inhumanity. People should do something about that too, because a lot of the inhumanity is suffered by humans.

But it's just often more obvious when innocent creatures suffer.

RIP Eight Belles. To be born into a world of Man is not the best thing, even for Man.

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 05:10 AM
if you think for a moment that horses wouldn't force humans to race for their betting pleasure if they could, you're a crackpot.

Plot Device
05-04-2008, 06:09 AM
Why is there no link in the OP?

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 06:14 AM
because the quotes were transmitted through the fillings in my teeth.

here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/wire/chi-ap-rac-clinton-kentucky,0,6159760.story

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90EEUGO0&show_article=1

SPMiller
05-04-2008, 06:18 AM
I think the OP says all there is to say on the matter. I can't think of anything new to add, so consider this a supportive bump.

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 06:22 AM
Ya best keep yo' ass in check (come on)
Little motherfuckers better show respect
And what's next
The big brown takin' ya down
How you feel when your sorry ass can't hang with the hill...

- Cypress Hill, "Funk Freakers"

mscelina
05-04-2008, 06:28 AM
Hillary Clinton cursed my horse?

That's another reason not to like her.

Ptooey.

eldragon
05-04-2008, 06:42 AM
I used to work at a racetrack in Boise, Idaho, back in 1984. Seems like a horse was being put down (shot dead) almost every week.


It's a cruel "sport" in my opinion.

But hey, it entertains people, right?

billythrilly7th
05-04-2008, 06:49 AM
weird.wild.stuff

This is the kind of thing that could completely reinvigorate the Obama campaign.

Guam.

And this.

Good day for Obama.
+
Bad day for Hillary.

=

Good day for me.

-Bad day for horse

= Still a decent day for me.




Gobama!

Appalachian Writer
05-04-2008, 06:52 AM
Poor horse and poor Hillary. Second, huh? I didn't see it, thank God. I saw one horse shatter it's leg on the track, and that was quite enough for me. I agree with Plot Device. I think just once before the end of time, horses should make people race until they break their legs. As for Hillary coming in second, oh, I mean, Eight Belles coming in second, I can't imagine what the horse's owners must have felt like. If they cared for the horse, it must have been devastating. If they cared for the purse, at least, they got some of what they came for.

mscelina
05-04-2008, 06:53 AM
*sarcasm aside*

It was heartbreaking.

*sarcasm reinstituted*

Bird of Prey
05-04-2008, 07:53 AM
I don't find anything remotely funny, entertaining or interesting about a horse breaking her legs and being euthanized.

Nothing at all funny or worth discussing in connection to politics. It's disgraceful and awful and that's about it.

clintl
05-04-2008, 08:01 AM
I don't find anything remotely funny, entertaining or interesting about a horse breaking her legs and being euthanized.

Nothing at all funny or worth discussing in connection to politics. It's disgraceful and awful and that's about it.

I agree, and that's why I hadn't posted anything in this thread.

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 08:01 AM
gallows humor, while not appreciated by everyone, is an accepted form of satire.

only i guess this would be glue factory humor.

billythrilly7th
05-04-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't think anyone is making too much funny about the horse.

But it is wacky stuff, that Hil's horse the philly came in second to "BIG BROWN," Obama's Harvard Frat Pledge Nickname, and was then sent to that big grazing pasture in the sky.

http://www.hoofbeats-in-heaven.com/HIH/hih-450.jpg

Where there will be no more whips.

No more people on it's back.

And it will be able to run free and fast.

For an eternity.

Goodbye Eight Belles.
R.I.P.

:cry:

Brutal Mustang
05-04-2008, 09:41 AM
All those innocent creatures want is to run and be happy running around in fields ... and people make them endanger themselves for sport.


Watching that was devastating, but you know what?

First off, I have to say, those animals are bred to run, and they LOVE doing it. When they retire, they often take on bad habits like chewing on fences and pacing. And the main reason breakdowns like this happen is because breeders are breeding them too fast and strong for their bones and ligaments.

Second of all, horse racing is doing millions of "average" horses all around the world a BIG favor.

Advances in equine science are constantly making leaps and bounds nowadays, because of the millions of research dollars being poured in by the thoroughbred racing industry. It's rather remarkable, actually; I wouldn't be surprised if equine medicine is advancing faster than cat and dog medicine right now. At least it seems that way, reading my equine medicine newsletter I prescribe to.

My ol' fat mustang and her foal have amazing options available to them, thanks to thoroughbred racing. In fact, my foal was just saved, due in part to these advances.

And some broken legs can be fixed (the very notion used to be inconceivable). Just not for this poor baby.:e2bummed:

blacbird
05-04-2008, 10:17 AM
Watching that was devastating, but you know what?

First off, I have to say, those animals are bred to run, and they LOVE doing it. When they retire, they often take on bad habits like chewing on fences and pacing. And the main reason breakdowns like this happen is because breeders are breeding them too fast and strong for their bones and ligaments.

Second of all, horse racing is doing millions of "average" horses all around the world a BIG favor.

Advances in equine science are constantly making leaps and bounds nowadays, because of the millions of research dollars being poured in by the thoroughbred racing industry. It's rather remarkable, actually; I wouldn't be surprised if equine medicine is advancing faster than cat and dog medicine right now. At least it seems that way, reading my equine medicine newsletter I prescribe to.

Yeah. I'm sure Joseph Mengele's experimental data from Auschwitz contains some stuff useful for human medicine, too.

caw

Dawno
05-04-2008, 11:00 AM
I think we can calmly discuss our differences of opinion about race horse breeding with out invoking Godwin, ok? That was unnecessary.

And while I can appreciate that some folk are sensitive to the "gallows" humor, I agree with Haskins. If you don't, you can politely point out why or skip this thread.

NikeeGoddess
05-04-2008, 05:29 PM
I wonder how she knew they were gonna drug that horse up to run til it broke its own legs?no one suspected the drugs on her tongue as she french-kissed the horse for the camerasTrainer Larry Jones and owner Rick Porter decided to run Eight Belles against the boys in America's greatest race despite her never having done so before.see now, you got it all wrong. hillary wouldn't sabotage her own horse. it was all the boy horses afraid of being shamefully beaten by a girl horse. they gave her the poisoned apple during the half-time show... all grinning with their enormous horse teeth behind her back. the bastards!!!

soleary
05-04-2008, 05:37 PM
I hope and pray the horse's suffering was minimal. It was a tragedy, and painful to watch.

Bird of Prey
05-04-2008, 05:46 PM
Watching that was devastating, but you know what?

First off, I have to say, those animals are bred to run, and they LOVE doing it. When they retire, they often take on bad habits like chewing on fences and pacing. And the main reason breakdowns like this happen is because breeders are breeding them too fast and strong for their bones and ligaments. . . .



We don't know what they love to do. Thoroughbreds are bred to be fast, but I've ridden my share of lazy thoroughbreds, and that's just fine with me.

Chewing fences and pacing are habits that can be shared by all breeds. It has little to do with the frustration of not being on a track or "running." A quarter horse down the street is a voracious cribber; he's a three year old, never been on a track, and has twenty acres to roam. I think chewing and cribbling, unless it's for lack of enough to eat, could be something similar to dogs that incessantly lick their leg: some kind of endorphin release that becomes addictive.

The conditions on the track have become worse over the years, not better. The sport is terribly corrupt. The track is slick finished for optimum speed. And although this filly went down like the famous Ruffian years ago, and it seems rare, plenty more do. Racing is dangerous. It's gotten worse for horses but thankfully better for jockeys, who used to endure appalling injuries without much help.

I don't see that racing has brought about much in the way of veterinary advances. It's far more likely that the ultra-expensive sport horses - often owned and ridden by the same: their wealthy, doting caretakers -are more to blame for equine advancement.

Racing thoroughbreds are insured. A poor filly doesn't have a prayer if injured. She's not worth much alive hobbled up, as she can only produce maybe fifteen foals, compared to a stallion who can still breed lame and produce hundreds or more.

The upside is - due to cloning - racing could eventually become a bore.

My personal feeling is that it has lost both its integrity and its appeal. Racing used to be something else entirely. It used to be about family horses, friendly bets on Saturday afternoons amid a certain pageantry. Now it's about money. . . and money. . .and money.

brokenfingers
05-04-2008, 06:08 PM
see now, you got it all wrong. hillary wouldn't sabotage her own horse. it was all the boy horses afraid of being shamefully beaten by a girl horse. they gave her the poisoned apple during the half-time show... all grinning with their enormous horse teeth behind her back. the bastards!!!Hillary never sabotaged her own horse. She had nothing to do with it, actually. It was one of those pesky aides acting on their own accord who thought it would make awesome news copy and possibly sway people if Hillary picked a longshot filly (female horse Eight Belles) to beat the odds on favorite (Big Brown) so they doped up the horse in the hopes it would win.

Unfortunately, things didn't quite worked out as planned and the horse came in second while destroying itself in the process.

Prophetic indeed.

robeiae
05-04-2008, 06:28 PM
Hillary never sabotaged her own horse. She had nothing to do with it, actually. It was one of those pesky aides acting on their own accord who thought it would make awesome news copy and possibly sway people if Hillary picked a longshot filly (female horse Eight Belles) to beat the odds on favorite (Big Brown) so they doped up the horse in the hopes it would win.

Unfortunately, things didn't quite worked out as planned and the horse came in second while destroying itself in the process.

Prophetic indeed.
Is this satirical, BF?

NikeeGoddess
05-04-2008, 06:48 PM
hopefully she'll cry about it and get more votes for being a woman.

cethklein
05-04-2008, 07:16 PM
hopefully she'll cry about it and get more votes for being a woman.

And you actually think that's a good thing, getting votes based on gender? Do you really think Hillary can't win on her own merits?

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 08:40 PM
excellent article on overbreeding:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/03/AR2008050301707_pf.html

Brutal Mustang
05-04-2008, 09:19 PM
Yeah. I'm sure Joseph Mengele's experimental data from Auschwitz contains some stuff useful for human medicine, too.

caw

That did nothing for every day medicine the way the sport of horse racing (far more humane) does for everyday horses.

Brutal Mustang
05-04-2008, 09:56 PM
We don't know what they love to do. Thoroughbreds are bred to be fast, but I've ridden my share of lazy thoroughbreds, and that's just fine with me.

Chewing fences and pacing are habits that can be shared by all breeds. It has little to do with the frustration of not being on a track or "running." A quarter horse down the street is a voracious cribber; he's a three year old, never been on a track, and has twenty acres to roam. I think chewing and cribbling, unless it's for lack of enough to eat, could be something similar to dogs that incessantly lick their leg: some kind of endorphin release that becomes addictive.


I know when a spirited horse under me is chomping on the bit, wanting to run. A racing quality thoroughbred has even more of this drive than the average horse/lazy thoroughbred. Some horses (particularly Arabians, at least ones I've known) like running so much they'll literally run themselves to death if you let them ... with gusto!

But it's not just the running seasoned race horses like about racing. It's the activity and excitement. Ask grooms who stay by these horses, and they'll tell you that their horses definitely got depressed, and resorted to bad habits after retirement.

These thoroughbreds are not being pushed to run like that. The jockey's whip is a cue, not a demand; when the jockey touches a horse with the whip, he's asking the horse to shift into faster gear, not "making" it. In all reality, you can't "make" a 1200 lb animal do anything (you can take advantage of it's desire to serve, however).


The conditions on the track have become worse over the years, not better. The sport is terribly corrupt. The track is slick finished for optimum speed. And although this filly went down like the famous Ruffian years ago, and it seems rare, plenty more do. Racing is dangerous. It's gotten worse for horses but thankfully better for jockeys, who used to endure appalling injuries without much help. To the contrary, the sport is MUCH more regulated than it once was. Things went on back in the day that would make anyone's hair stand on end. Nowadays, when things go wrong, they get far more publicity.

I don't see that racing has brought about much in the way of veterinary advances. It's far more likely that the ultra-expensive sport horses - often owned and ridden by the same: their wealthy, doting caretakers -are more to blame for equine advancement. No, there isn't enough money behind non-racing sport horses to drive major advances equine medicine. The sports group also benefits from the "trickle down" of the racing industry.

Each of those horses running yesterday is worth about a million or more each. Several of those horse's owners are worth billions, and they fork out a great deal of money into equine medicine.

Racing thoroughbreds are insured. A poor filly doesn't have a prayer if injured. She's not worth much alive hobbled up, as she can only produce maybe fifteen foals, compared to a stallion who can still breed lame and produce hundreds or more.

The upside is - due to cloning - racing could eventually become a bore.It's unlikely thoroughbreds will ever be cloned. Artificial insemination is against their rules, with no signs of budging. This is why Barbaro had little chance to ever be useful as a stud; he'd have to stand on that back leg to cover a mare. Yet, knowing this, his owners went ahead and tried to save him anyway, because they cared about HIM.

This catastrophe all boils down to the breeding, the breeding, the breeding. William just posted a great article on that here.

whistlelock
05-04-2008, 10:50 PM
if you think for a moment that horses wouldn't force humans to race for their betting pleasure if they could, you're a crackpot. That's just silly, William. Horses wouldn't do that.

They'd make us race to see which one wouldn't be eaten that night.

The only thing between a horse and a good meal is the fence you're on the other side of.

Bird of Prey
05-04-2008, 11:18 PM
I know when a spirited horse under me is chomping on the bit, wanting to run. A racing quality thoroughbred has even more of this drive than the average horse/lazy thoroughbred. Some horses (particularly Arabians, at least ones I've known) like running so much they'll literally run themselves to death if you let them ... with gusto!

That can also be nervousness and is often a result of abuse. It's those horses that often wind up around people like me, so we can quietly earn their trust so they don't take off like wild-eyed bats out of hell when introduced to the serene world of pleasure riding.

But it's not just the running seasoned race horses like about racing. It's the activity and excitement. Ask grooms who stay by these horses, and they'll tell you that their horses definitely got depressed, and resorted to bad habits after retirement.

What utter nonsense. I've been around horses all my life. What groom told you that? I'll tell you he or she is flat out wrong. It's just a rationale for keeping horse lean and pumped up, as in nervous. The bad habits start there.

These thoroughbreds are not being pushed to run like that. The jockey's whip is a cue, not a demand; when the jockey touches a horse with the whip, he's asking the horse to shift into faster gear, not "making" it. In all reality, you can't "make" a 1200 lb animal do anything (you can take advantage of it's desire to serve, however).

Cue? Cue? That's a nice of putting it. It's a cue as in a threat.

To the contrary, the sport is MUCH more regulated than it once was. Things went on back in the day that would make anyone's hair stand on end. Nowadays, when things go wrong, they get far more publicity.

They get no publicity unless a horse literally breaks her legs on the track.


No, there isn't enough money behind non-racing sport horses to drive major advances equine medicine. The sports group also benefits from the "trickle down" of the racing industry.

Wow. Please tell Kate Capshaw that. It's the people who care about their horses that drive veterinary medicine.

Each of those horses running yesterday is worth about a million or more each. Several of those horse's owners are worth billions, and they fork out a great deal of money into equine medicine.

They contribute, mostly to advances in breeding and salvaging big broken down investments, as in keeping them walking long enough to breed.

It's unlikely thoroughbreds will ever be cloned. Artificial insemination is against their rules, with no signs of budging. This is why Barbaro had little chance to ever be useful as a stud; he'd have to stand on that back leg to cover a mare. Yet, knowing this, his owners went ahead and tried to save him anyway, because they cared about HIM.

That's sweet of you to think. Cloning equines has happened and will continue to because it's a door that has opened, and there's no going back. And if you think that artificial insemination doesn't happen among thoroughbreds in the racing world, that's terribly naive. How well do you think it's regulated?

This catastrophe all boils down to the breeding, the breeding, the breeding. William just posted a great article on that here.

I'm well aware of the reason for the catastrophes. The article addresses about a quarter of the iceburg.

sandyn
05-04-2008, 11:21 PM
I, personally, will never watch another horse race (and I was born and raised in Kentucky, home of the Derby.)

I also think, IMHO, those who find any humor whatsoever in the suffering of such beautiful animals are strange (and that's being kind...)

Hillary Clinton had nothing whatsoever to do with this animal's death. Racing her at a young age when her bones were more fragile killed her, as did greed. Let's just hope Big Brown, being heavier, doesn't suffer the same fate. What would the gallows humor crowd make of that, I wonder

Rant over...

William Haskins
05-04-2008, 11:36 PM
I also think, IMHO, those who find any humor whatsoever in the suffering of such beautiful animals are strange (and that's being kind...)

well, there's obviously no accounting for taste...

Hillary Clinton had nothing whatsoever to do with this animal's death. Racing her at a young age when her bones were more fragile killed her, as did greed. Let's just hope Big Brown, being heavier, doesn't suffer the same fate. What would the gallows humor crowd make of that, I wonder

if he lost to a horse called "P.O.W." or "McMane", it would be creepy as hell.

POPASMOKE
05-04-2008, 11:52 PM
hopefully she'll cry about it and get more votes for being a woman.

What a solid, rational, logical, reasonable basis for electing the next president! :Wha:

blacbird
05-05-2008, 12:16 AM
That did nothing for every day medicine the way the sport of horse racing (far more humane) does for everyday horses.

The Iraq War is helping develop great advances in major human trauma treatment, too.

caw

justme
05-05-2008, 12:19 AM
Eight belles did not receive proper training for the race. The last time she ran that length was thirty days ago. It is the trainers fault she is gone.

billythrilly7th
05-05-2008, 01:27 AM
There's no such thing as a good horse. There's no such thing as a bad horse. A horse in the hands of a bad jockey is a very dangerous thing. A horse in the hands of a good jockey is no danger to anyone except the bad horses.

NikeeGoddess
05-05-2008, 01:37 AM
Eight belles did not receive proper training for the race. The last time she ran that length was thirty days ago. It is the trainers fault she is gone.i think the new article sort of blamed it on the owner who put her in there at the last minute.

justme
05-05-2008, 01:42 AM
i think the new article sort of blamed it on the owner who put her in there at the last minute.

Yes, I agree.
Perhaps a combination of both.

GeorgeK
05-05-2008, 10:16 AM
Yeah. I'm sure Joseph Mengele's experimental data from Auschwitz contains some stuff useful for human medicine, too.

caw

Yes, we now know that it is possible to reverse atherosclerotic plaques. Of course the treatment he used had a 50% mortality, but the point is that it is possible.

mscelina
05-05-2008, 10:23 AM
Oh, for pete's sake.

The horse stepped wrong and broke her leg. It happens all the time, even to stodgy old plowhorses on a dry field. It was an accident--a tragic accident--but an accident nonetheless. Assigning blame is taking this way too far. Hell- I can walk down a dry, level sidewalk in sneakers and roll my ankle. Should I blame my parents, for breeding a human with inferior tendons? Perhaps I should blame the guy who laid the concrete in the sidewalk? No, wait, maybe I should blame the PE teacher who failed to infuse me with grace.

I teared up when the filly went down. I felt sick when I heard the extent of her injuries, and was gobsmacked when they had to put her down. Let's not overthink this here or look for conspiracy theories. This thread was started as, and intended to be, an exercise in irony IMO. Why don't we try to get back to that--just to be different.

Bartholomew
05-05-2008, 12:24 PM
if you think for a moment that horses wouldn't force humans to race for their betting pleasure if they could, you're a crackpot.

That doesn't make it right.

NikeeGoddess
05-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by William Haskins
if you think for a moment that horses wouldn't force humans to race for their betting pleasure if they could, you're a crackpot.
That doesn't make it right.reminds me of planet of the apes... only with horses

Bartholomew
05-05-2008, 02:47 PM
reminds me of planet of the apes... only with horses

Heh!

justme
05-05-2008, 05:52 PM
Oh, for pete's sake.

The horse stepped wrong and broke her leg. It happens all the time, even to stodgy old plowhorses on a dry field. It was an accident--a tragic accident--but an accident nonetheless. Assigning blame is taking this way too far. Hell- I can walk down a dry, level sidewalk in sneakers and roll my ankle. Should I blame my parents, for breeding a human with inferior tendons? Perhaps I should blame the guy who laid the concrete in the sidewalk? No, wait, maybe I should blame the PE teacher who failed to infuse me with grace.

I teared up when the filly went down. I felt sick when I heard the extent of her injuries, and was gobsmacked when they had to put her down. Let's not overthink this here or look for conspiracy theories. This thread was started as, and intended to be, an exercise in irony IMO. Why don't we try to get back to that--just to be different.

It's not that simple.
Itís as if you set out to run a marathon and didnít properly train for it. Yes, she could have stepped wrong, but I doubt it. I'm around
thoroughbreds daily and I feel it was an accident that could have been prevented.

mscelina
05-05-2008, 07:13 PM
Yes and I grew up around them. Anyone watching the film could see her step wrong. She was slowing down which, as you know, is a dangerous time for any thoroughbred in any race. Perhaps she was overraced and had strained tendons or something, true, but we don't know that and won't know it until the autopsy.

It just occurred to me (in the middle of the night, mind you ;) ) that perhaps people needed to remember what IRONY is. There are serious threads about the Derby for this conversation--no need to dogpile on this one and scream about how mean some people are.

We are mean. This is the politics forum. *shrug* It's how the beast is made.

Brutal Mustang
05-06-2008, 05:20 AM
That can also be nervousness and is often a result of abuse. It's those horses that often wind up around people like me, so we can quietly earn their trust so they don't take off like wild-eyed bats out of hell when introduced to the serene world of pleasure riding.

Nah. There are plenty of jolly horses out there who love to run.


What utter nonsense. I've been around horses all my life. What groom told you that? I'll tell you he or she is flat out wrong. It's just a rationale for keeping horse lean and pumped up, as in nervous. The bad habits start there. I've been around horses all my life too. I've trained several, including a wild BLM mustang. I know when horses are depressed about being moved around, and I don't presume to be the only one who does.

If you haven't seen this in horses, you haven't been around them enough, and don't know them as much as you're claiming.

Cue? Cue? That's a nice of putting it. It's a cue as in a threat.No. They're trained to go faster when they feel the whip touch them. That's the number one reason riders of every sport use whips ... to cue, not to punish.


Wow. Please tell Kate Capshaw that. It's the people who care about their horses that drive veterinary medicine.You're not thinking of all the Saudi princes, oil tycoons, and Japanese CEOs who own race horses. The dressage lot and all their money doesn't hold a candle to them. They don't, and can't. Doesn't matter how much they love their horses. Love don't buy advances in equine medicine. And in any case, don't think the racing people don't love their horses too. They do.


That's sweet of you to think. Cloning equines has happened and will continue to because it's a door that has opened, and there's no going back. And if you think that artificial insemination doesn't happen among thoroughbreds in the racing world, that's terribly naive. How well do you think it's regulated?
You have no idea what your talking about here. Look up thoroughbred rules and regulations on this.

Brutal Mustang
05-06-2008, 05:21 AM
Oh, for pete's sake.

The horse stepped wrong and broke her leg. It happens all the time, even to stodgy old plowhorses on a dry field. It was an accident--a tragic accident--but an accident nonetheless. Assigning blame is taking this way too far. Hell- I can walk down a dry, level sidewalk in sneakers and roll my ankle. Should I blame my parents, for breeding a human with inferior tendons? Perhaps I should blame the guy who laid the concrete in the sidewalk? No, wait, maybe I should blame the PE teacher who failed to infuse me with grace.

I teared up when the filly went down. I felt sick when I heard the extent of her injuries, and was gobsmacked when they had to put her down. Let's not overthink this here or look for conspiracy theories. This thread was started as, and intended to be, an exercise in irony IMO. Why don't we try to get back to that--just to be different.

Good post! I mostly agree with this!

Bird of Prey
05-06-2008, 05:53 AM
Nah. There are plenty of jolly horses out there who love to run.

I've been around horses all my life too. I've trained several, including a wild BLM mustang. I know when horses are depressed about being moved around, and I don't presume to be the only one who does.

If you haven't seen this in horses, you haven't been around them enough, and don't know them as much as you're claiming.

No. They're trained to go faster when they feel the whip touch them. That's the number one reason riders of every sport use whips ... to cue, not to punish.


You're not thinking of all the Saudi princes, oil tycoons, and Japanese CEOs who own race horses. The dressage lot and all their money doesn't hold a candle to them. They don't, and can't. Doesn't matter how much they love their horses. Love don't buy advances in equine medicine. And in any case, don't think the racing people don't love their horses too. They do.

You have no idea what your talking about here. Look up thoroughbred rules and regulations on this.

LOL!! Yeah? I bet you know all about it, huh? Thoroughbred rules and regs. . . . Sometimes posts aren't worth it. This ain't worth it, but I'll leave you with this:

As you continue to use your "cues," I'll continue to call it abusive and be right on the money.

In the mean time, I'll be glad that my horses - all that I've worked with and owned - are saved from you and your "cues."

Brutal Mustang
05-06-2008, 09:06 AM
LOL!! Yeah? I bet you know all about it, huh? Thoroughbred rules and regs. . . . Sometimes posts aren't worth it. This ain't worth it, but I'll leave you with this:

As you continue to use your "cues," I'll continue to call it abusive and be right on the money.

In the mean time, I'll be glad that my horses - all that I've worked with and owned - are saved from you and your "cues."

You don't know the difference between the tap of a whip, and a hard whip (using a it as an extension of your hand)? Somehow I find it a stretch of the imagination to believe you own any horses. You don't come across as a real horse person at all. Even those sport horse people you were elevating use whips to cue their horses.

Bird of Prey
05-06-2008, 07:02 PM
You don't know the difference between the tap of a whip, and a hard whip (using a it as an extension of your hand)? Somehow I find it a stretch of the imagination to believe you own any horses. You don't come across as a real horse person at all. . . .


In your world, no doubt I'm not. And I'm quite happy about that, Brutal.

NikeeGoddess
05-06-2008, 07:13 PM
in the real world even the best and highest paid athletes get serious injuries. if they can't heal then they're out! out to pasture for most horses and greyhounds.

i don't know much about vet medicine except that euthanizing horses with broken legs has been going on forever. i know they have evolved somewhat because they don't kill them all. maybe just the fillies. if big brown had gone down after winning they probably would have saved him for his genetic sperm. because yes, it is a business too.

Norman D Gutter
05-06-2008, 08:40 PM
...horse racing is doing millions of "average" horses all around the world a BIG favor.

Advances in equine science are constantly making leaps and bounds nowadays, because of the millions of research dollars being poured in by the thoroughbred racing industry. It's rather remarkable, actually; I wouldn't be surprised if equine medicine is advancing faster than cat and dog medicine right now. At least it seems that way, reading my equine medicine newsletter I prescribe to.

My ol' fat mustang and her foal have amazing options available to them, thanks to thoroughbred racing. In fact, my foal was just saved, due in part to these advances.
...

I seriously doubt those advances are actually reaching most "average" horses. One of my good friends is a leading vertinarian in our county. He says he rarely works on horses because no one wants to spend the money on them, because they have no economic value. Cattle, on the other hand, he works on all the time. He would love to apply his skills to horses, but since they are essentially for hobby use (at least in these parts), they suffer without verterinarian care.

Horse racing is, IMHO, a cruel activity. I want no part in it.

NDG

Norman D Gutter
05-06-2008, 09:18 PM
TWB:

Who is imposing their beliefs on you? I stated my opinion, same as you did. Stating a belief is not imposing a belief. I don't say end the activity. I'm just not going to participate.

Chill out.

InfinityGoddess
05-07-2008, 02:44 AM
Horse racing isn't cruel. It's a hot button issue because of what happened to Eight Belles. In two weeks, the PETA people and the rest of the animal rights activists and liberals will find a new issue to harp on and try to get changed. They ride in, see something they don't understand, apply their own world view to it without getting the actual facts, they start spouting off about how things should be changed, then ride off to the next "crisis."

So you think that issues of animal welfare are a trivial matter? Try watching Animal Cops sometime on Animal Planet. I guarantee you that it's anything but when you see animals that are being horribly mistreated just because they aren't human and therefore seen as something to be easily discarded just like that.

Brutal Mustang
05-07-2008, 04:51 AM
One of my good friends is a leading vertinarian in our county. He says he rarely works on horses because no one wants to spend the money on them, because they have no economic value.

Bullshit.

Although this proves what I'm saying. Multi-million dollar race horses DO have economic value, greater than all the rest of the horses, which is why thoroughbred racing drives advances in equine science for the rest of us.

Heck, I just had a newborn foal receive a plasma transfer, among several other things, which saved his life. All of those techniques that saved him emerged first in multi-million dollar racing barns, before becoming accessible to people like me.

Brutal Mustang
05-07-2008, 04:52 AM
So you think that issues of animal welfare are a trivial matter?

He's not saying animal cruelty is a trivial matter. He's saying horse racing isn't animal cruelty.

InfinityGoddess
05-07-2008, 05:22 AM
He's not saying animal cruelty is a trivial matter. He's saying horse racing isn't animal cruelty.

Perhaps not, but even in racing, you have your animal abuse.

Brutal Mustang
05-07-2008, 05:35 AM
Not on any larger percentage than any other situation where animals and humans mix.

Actually, those upper class race horses live a better life than we do in many ways: they have swimming pools, massages, saunas, and even ... get this ... acupuncture (I've seen this done several times, and in all cases the horses were very relaxed with their eyes closed, despite the fact that they looked like cacti :eek:).

Brutal Mustang
05-07-2008, 05:56 AM
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc1RG1TzbgM&feature=related) is a good example on YouTube of a horse in a track swimming pool. They swim the horses with two people (in case of an emergency, the two people can keep the horse's head up). Private thoroughbred ranches all over the world have pools like these, to keep the horses fit without stressing the joints.

P.S. A drawbridge helps get the man to the middle island.

And goodness gracious, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPXy3SMW7mI&feature=related) is a horse in an aqua treadmill!

Norman D Gutter
05-07-2008, 06:03 AM
Bulls**t.

Although this proves what I'm saying. Multi-million dollar race horses DO have economic value, greater than all the rest of the horses, which is why thoroughbred racing drives advances in equine science for the rest of us.

Heck, I just had a newborn foal receive a plasma transfer, among several other things, which saved his life. All of those techniques that saved him emerged first in multi-million dollar racing barns, before becoming accessible to people like me.

Well, all I have is this anecdotal evidence: one county, one vet. He's not a liar. No one hires him to check their horses. I assure you I am accurately reporting what he told me, and his practice is greater than 50 percent on large animals as opposed to pets.

I don't doubt that the million dollar race horses get good treatment, or that advances in vertinary medicine are happening as a result. I'm just saying the horse worth maybe $200 to $500 likely will never benefit from that treatment.

Brutal Mustang
05-07-2008, 06:16 AM
Well, all I have is this anecdotal evidence: one county, one vet. He's not a liar. No one hires him to check their horses.

I don't doubt that the million dollar race horses get good treatment, or that advances in vertinary medicine are happening as a result. I'm just saying the horse worth maybe $200 to $500 likely will never benefit from that treatment.

Um, I have a BLM mustang I got for $45 bucks, that I'd pay thousands to save (even though I'd be eating Ramen noodles for a year). There are plenty other horse owners just like me. We don't care if our horse costs $40 or $40,000,000. We just want to do everything in our power to keep them alive and healthy.

But like I was explaining to Bird, many of us can only afford to go so far, and can't significantly advance equine science with our $$$$ the way the thoroughbred racing industry does.

The kind of horse owners you describe, who won't pay for a simple vet visit, are the kind that are talked about all the time on Fugly Horse of the Day (http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/).

It's possible your vet friend simply doesn't appeal to his local horse owners. I have 3 vets I use. One of them turns me off with his bad bedside manners and lack of communication; I get the feeling other horse owners feel the same way about him, because he's working with more and more cows. The vets I like, however, are over booked with horses.

SPMiller
05-07-2008, 06:28 AM
I work with five horses worth four to five digits of dollars each every single day. (Selling one here (http://theperuvianpaso.com/peruvian_paso_mare_for_sale__aleli.htm) if you're interested!) They're absolutely worth the vet bills.

And, uh, the reason vets work more on cattle than on horses is because there are loads more cattle. Horses are for pleasure and the population is therefore much smaller in comparison. But what do I know? I only live near Dallas. Not like we know anything about cattle or horses here :eyeroll:

Although I do agree horse racing is rather inhumane in various ways.

Norman D Gutter
05-07-2008, 06:48 AM
Tell you what, BM, I won't tell you what it's like in Northern Colorado.

GeorgeK
05-07-2008, 10:10 AM
if big brown had gone down after winning they probably would have saved him for his genetic sperm. because yes, it is a business too.

I bet that philly's ovaries are in a freezer right now