Speculative Poets and Poetry

[skelly]

Talking with Rose and Di. We need a thread for those of us who write speculative poetry. I think there are some others here who write speculative poetry as well, so chime in and let's make a thing of it.

Discuss the form? Share some of our speculative poems? Share market info? Anything, I guess, as long as it concerns speculative poetry.

Of course, now we have to define speculative poetry...

[Dichroic]

Sharing for both appreciation and critique would be really helpful for me. And mabe recomendations as well. (Have you read any of Jo Walton's or Suzette Hayden Elgin's stuff? Both are SF/fantasy writers who frequently post poems to their LiveJournals. Good stuff.)

[skelly]

Sharing for both appreciation and critique would be really helpful for me. And mabe recomendations as well. (Have you read any of Jo Walton's or Suzette Hayden Elgin's stuff? Both are SF/fantasy writers who frequently post poems to their LiveJournals. Good stuff.)
That's kinda where I'm at, Di. Anyway, I'm about at the end of my online time for the day, but I am going to check back here and add to every day. I really would like to turn this into a little spot for the spec poets.

In that vein, here's an excerpt from an interview that I did with Elissa Malcohn on my blog. I'll put a link in at the bottom for anyone who wants to read the whole interview.

Elissa was editor of Star*Line back in the mid 80's.

Re: What is Speculative Poetry?

VG- How do you define the term "speculative poetry"? What makes a poem "speculative"? Do you make a distinction between speculative poetry and science fiction poetry?
EM- I consider science fiction poetry to be a subset of speculative poetry -- and would say the same for fantasy, horror, and science poetry. An article of mine, forthcoming in the Winter 2007 issue of Poets' Forum Magazine, introduces the concept of speculative poetry to the general readership. PFM is interactive, introducing poetic forms and concepts and providing its readers with "challenges".
Expanding on the SFPA's definition of speculative poetry as driven by speculation, I wrote, "Such poetry often uses metaphors to engage the imagination and go beyond everyday reality. Even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem."
For that reason I would place works such as Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Raven” and Diane Ackerman’s volume of astronomical poems, The Planets: A Cosmic Pastoral (William Morrow & Co., 1977) in the speculative poetry category.

An Interview with Elissa Malcohn (http://sak6.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/an-interview-with-elissa-malcohn-former-editor-of-starline/)

[Steppe]

Seems to me that " even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem", is a rather brood definition, allowing much to be considered as speculative poetry.

In other words, I think a finer definition should be wanted.

[Gray Rose]

It's not about definition so much as it is about readership. Many poems are clearly "SF poems", others are more borderline - touching on mythical themes, for example, which could be appropriate for general markets as well; but the readers who come to read straight SF or fantasy poetry usually also enjoy mythic poetry, and slipstream poetry, and what not; a good mythic poem has a much easier chance of finding a home in a spec market than in other places. Plus, the readers actually read and care. It's a wonderful small niche to hang out. And people usually are gentle and non-pretentious.

[Gray Rose]

Oh and btw maybe we can have a sticky in the Poetry Crit forum with all the spec or spec-friendly poems to be critted, because poems disappear rather quickly from the main page, and we should make an effort to help each other IMHO.

[skelly]

Seems to me that " even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem", is a rather brood definition, allowing much to be considered as speculative poetry.

In other words, I think a finer definition should be wanted.
If you read and or write speculative poetry you know what it is. For those who are not a part of that "crowd," some shape needs to be given to the beast. I think Ms. Malcohn does an excellent job of finding some shape in this particular void.

[skelly]

It's not about definition so much as it is about readership. Many poems are clearly "SF poems", others are more borderline - touching on mythical themes, for example, which could be appropriate for general markets as well; but the readers who come to read straight SF or fantasy poetry usually also enjoy mythic poetry, and slipstream poetry, and what not; a good mythic poem has a much easier chance of finding a home in a spec market than in other places. Plus, the readers actually read and care. It's a wonderful small niche to hang out. And people usually are gentle and non-pretentious.
Which makes me think maybe we should just keep it that way....

:D

[JRH]

One of the things that has not been adequately explored here are the range of works that "Speculative Fiction" encompasses which apparently,including Science Fiction, SF, Fantasy, Horror, Myths, and anything touching on the Sciences that could actually be termed "Speculative".

More importantly, there seems to be a rather large demand out there for such including dozens of small markets, (many of which actually pay a little), and those markets, or a least a wide selection of them, are posted by The Science Fiction Poetry Association on the web and can be found at: http://www.sfpoetry.com/links.html

One of the links that is listed there is "Astropoetica" where my "Legacy of Aristarhus" was published last year, and that just shows the validity of such markets because it was a poem I was not able to place elsewhere although I tried it with "The New Yorker". "The Atlantic Monthly", "Poetry Magazine" and a half dozen "Literary" Journals

Beyond that, I, myself, have at least a half dozen Poems that, although "Historical"/"Mythical", could be labeled "Speculative" or "Fantasy" and at least 8 more that are "Apocalyptical" and thus could be considered in several of those areas and there have obviously been many Poems posted on these Forums that would also be appropriate for these venues, so I think it would behoove all of us to look into them.

None of these are large markets, but with this many available, they could provide a valid opening for many of us to find "Publication".

Check Them Out.

Jim Hoye (JRH)

[Gray Rose]

I wouldn't say there are many, but they are excellent. Mythic Delirium, Goblin Fruit, Star*line, LSS, Dreams and Nightmares are all wonderful. Strange Horizons and Asimov's also publish poetry. These are paying markets. Their readership, as I said above, may be small - but it is dedicated and caring. These markets all pay between 5-20$ per poem, which is fine by me.

I would view the SP markets not as a gateway to publication in larger magazines, but as a world within itself. Nobody I care about would read the smaller literary journals, but indeed many of my beloved people read Goblin Fruit. And it is a great thing IMHO that a relatively new e-zine has developed such a cult following.

I don't think what can be more meaningful to me than to publish in these small journals that I love. Sure, the New Yorker would be nice and much more prestigious, but I doubt I will ever send anything of mine to New Yorker.

[JRH]

Rose,

My thought on it was that if you are looking to impress Publishers for "Book Publication", any Publication Credit counts, (although these admittedly will not count as much as the "Majors"). and in my mind, that, in itself, makes it worth it. (Particularly when you consider I've only mangaged 16 acceptances in 47 years of continuous and extensive effort in approaching any and all markets I could find).

Moreover, there are over 75 markets listed on the SFPA site, most of which I had NEVER HEARD OF, and that, for me, represents a HUGE windfall of opportunity.

Best of luck to all and Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[Gray Rose]

Rose,

My thought on it was that if you are looking to impress Publishers for "Book Publication", any Publication Credit counts, (although these admittedly will not count as much as the "Majors"). and in my mind, that, in itself, makes it worth it. (Particularly when you consider I've only mangaged 16 acceptances in 47 years of continuous and extensive effort in approaching any and all markets I could find).

Moreover, there are over 75 markets listed on the SFPA site, most of which I had NEVER HEARD OF, and that, for me, represents a HUGE windfall of opportunity.

Best of luck to all and Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

Jim (if I may) - If you mean to use poetry credits to publish novels, than I am of a strong opinion that it would help very little, unless coupled with a record of short story publications. For selling speculative fiction, IMHO, speculative poetry credits are more meaningful than what you call a "Major" poetry credit. Indeed, many speculative poets are also successful novelists/short story writers, and vice versa. Check out Catherynne Valente and Jo Walton for instance.

16 poetry credits is quite impressive. I hope your other poems find good homes soon!

best of luck
Rose

[JRH]

Rose,

Thanks for the information and insight.

I have no interest in writing or publishing Novels as I've had difficulty in writing the 7 SF Short stories I have, (That haven't found publication, either). But I have always intended to publish my poetry, (now consiting of over 450 Poems including small ones such as Haiku/Senryu, Limericks, Epitaphs and Aphorisms), in volumes published by Traditional Publishers, and I have always figured I needed at least 50 credits in Major publications just to get in the door, (and I believe it would take twice that many in minor markets to do the job), and quite frankly, I'm running out of time to get it done as I'm now 66.

I had always attributed my lack of acceptance to he fact that I am a Traditional Poet, laboring in the face of a Modern/Intellectua/Metaphysical Cycle and I've always depended on the fact that that Cycle would one day change as it always has, but the older I get, the less likely it seems that it will happen in my lifetime, (so any thing that offers hope is a blessing).

For the record, I don't consider any form of "Vanity" publishing, POD or not, as anything but a waste of time, effort and money, and until such are accepted by libraries and Brick&Mortar Bookstores. I don't see them as offering anything but a meaningless last resort, but I don't intend to quit trying in any case.

Write On,

James R. Hoye

[Dichroic]

Well, no wonder it's a broad definition. One way to look at classification of writing is to turn it backwards from the usual perspective: all fiction falls into the realm of speculative fiction, because it all somwhow asks the question "What if?". The subset of writing set in universes that follow recognizable laws that fall within our understanding of existing natural laws is science fiction. And the subset of that that set in a world that is (or was) recognizably our own is what we usually consider literature and mainstream fiction.

So if the definition seems a little broad, maybe there's good reason.

Also, my experience is that SF people tend to be more widely read than the norm - any subculture that has spawned the likes of Mike Ford* is not one where you have to worry about people recognizing obscure words or bits of history or mythology.

(*If you haven't yet read Winter Solstice on Camelot Station, google it!)

[Dichroic]

OK, I'll plunge in. Here's a sort-of skiffy piece I wrote a year or so ago. Comments welcome, both + and -, not to mention discussion of whether this is or is not specfic.

Bloodstone, Bronze Ribbons, and Bone Roses

I can see you hoarding, dragon-style,
Sitting and sifting mixed treasures through your claws.
Words gleaming red as garnets,
Stones glowing subtle as sonnets.

I can see you working, mason-style,
Fitting the rocks, and building them into a wall
Pinching the edge off a flint,
Smoothing the side of a stanza.

I see stained glass glowing, window-style
Framing the bright bits together in shape of a tale,
Shifting sunlight to sapphire and ruby,
Wreaking rhythms to fire-song and story.

I can hear you singing.

[JBI]

Speculative Poetry is hardly new; it seems to have been a dominant force in Victorian times (stemming from Pre-Raphaelite fascination with Blake and the Arthurian cycle) and even had a major resurgence in the 1950s and 1960s surrounding the critic Northrop Frye (the best known example being The Boatman by Jay Macpherson). What is being proposed here however, seems to me at least, to be stemming from, instead of an archetypal influence, a speculative fiction influence. To me, without the archetypal/magical realist attitude of speculation, speculative poetry seems only speculative for the sake of being speculative poetry.

Anything that speculates has to speculate for a reason, otherwise it is just a frill. If the Nibelungenlied were written today I hardly think it would have been as profound. The tradition requires at least some grounding in societal or archetypal truths.

[skelly]

The poetry that I am referring to when I use the term "speculative poetry" is a more modern phenomenon. "Speculative poetry" is a rather poor label anyway. The poetry that I am talking about is perhaps more properly labelled "science fiction" poetry. The term "speculative" was, I think, meant to be more inclusive in regards to subject matter. It is a matter of how you choose to view it, in the end. Most of the non SF "speculative" poetry that I have read could as easily be labelled "new age," or "avante garde," or "modern surrealism," or whatever.

The speculative poetry that I write, and all that I have published, falls under the "science fiction" poetry label. It is only in the last ten years or so that I have begun to apply the "speculative poetry" style to poems concerning other topics.

Ultimately, for me, speculative poetry must do three things in order to be considered "speculative," in the sense that I have just described:

*The poem must inspire a sense of awe and/or wonder
*The poem must employ concise language and striking imagery, used either as narrative or metaphor, or both
*The poem must portray or posit some fantastical element...either of science, or myth, or the supernatural realm, and this fantastical element should be contrasted with reality as the reader understands, or perceives it

Di, I'll get back to your poem later tonight or early tomorrow morning. I'm still mulling where we could set up a spec poet's crit thing.

Anyway, let's not get too hung up on the word speculative.

:)

[JBI]

That is hardly a new phenomenon, if anything it is a neo-classical concept. Either way, as I was taught, the goal of Poetry is to stop time, by creating a universal. If speculation helps do that fine, but if it is just there for the sake of being there, it is pointless.

[skelly]

That is hardly a new phenomenon, if anything it is a neo-classical concept. Either way, as I was taught, the goal of Poetry is to stop time, by creating a universal. If speculation helps do that fine, but if it is just there for the sake of being there, it is pointless.
What is hardly a new phenomenon? Please be more specific. Also, the world is full of people who could care less what you were taught where it regards poetry of any stripe, neo-classical or otherwise. Perhaps it is only pointless to you because you do not understand it. My previous post was quite clear.

[Gray Rose]

JBI, I am with Skelly here. It is hard to define anything at all unless you are in hard sciences. Skelly's criteria are very appropriate.

In addition, at this time, Speculative Poetry is poetry written by people who self-identify as speculative poets. Check out SFPA (http://sfpoetry.com/).

There is nothing grand or ambitious about speculative poetry, nor does it have to justify its existence or relevance. It exists and is relevant, despite the fact that not a single spec poet has been picked up by Faber and Faber. Spec poetry is perhaps "wrongly defined" or "not new", or "meaningless" or "pointless" to you, but it is meaningful and fulfilling to ourselves and to our readership, and while that continues we will worry less about definition (which is not a meaningful worry IMHO) and more about refining our specific poems to the best of our ability.

I do not want to see this thread turn into a battle of definitions. This will be wrong for us ,who are only trying humbly to better our craft in this very small corner of Poetry which we lovingly call ours.

So please, JBI, decide what your want to accomplish in this thread. If this is to tell us that we should not be doing what we are doing because it is meaningless, then I am afraid I will have to politely ask you to do it in a different thread.

Thank you.

[Gray Rose]

FYI: a link to AMCrenshaw's speculative piece in Poetry Crit. I think a possible format would be to post our poems there (since it is password-protected), and to link to them here.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2296749#post2296749

Dichoric: perhaps post yours in poetry crit? We should perhaps agree on format before critting, and have an index of poems to crit.

Happy this place is here :)
Rose

[JBI]

I know specifically that the Russian literary tradition, especially romantic tradition, was filled with many fairy-tale poems, some of which written by writers as esteemed as Pushkin and Lermontov. The English tradition seems to pull on biblical sources, and classical sources to create a speculative form of poetry, the best example is the great Romantic poet, William Blake.

The German tradition, I will stick to more modern traditions, also seems to have large speculative features, the best example which comes to mind is Goethe's Erlkonig. Yeats, the famous Irish poet drew and used speculative devices in a large amount of his poetry, his perhaps most famous poem, The Second Coming is a great example of this, as is his only long poem, The Wanderings of Oisin. The American tradition contains many of these things as well, written by poets like Poe (though I think him mediocre), Longfellow, T.S. Eliot, etc.

In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.

[skelly]

FYI: a link to AMCrenshaw's speculative piece in Poetry Crit. I think a possible format would be to post our poems there (since it is password-protected), and to link to them here.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2296749#post2296749

Dichoric: perhaps post yours in poetry crit? We should perhaps agree on format before critting, and have an index of poems to crit.

Happy this place is here :)
Rose
I like this idea Rose. Works for me. :)

[Gray Rose]

In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.

JBI, what you say is true, yet it is completely irrelevant. SFPA exists since 1978. If you want to be argumentative, go pick a battle with Marge Simon and other SFPA people.

Please, just let us do our thing here.

[skelly]

I know specifically that the Russian literary tradition, especially romantic tradition, was filled with many fairy-tale poems, some of which written by writers as esteemed as Pushkin and Lermontov. The English tradition seems to pull on biblical sources, and classical sources to create a speculative form of poetry, the best example is the great Romantic poet, William Blake.

The German tradition, I will stick to more modern traditions, also seems to have large speculative features, the best example which comes to mind is Goethe's Erlkonig. Yeats, the famous Irish poet drew and used speculative devices in a large amount of his poetry, his perhaps most famous poem, The Second Coming is a great example of this, as is his only long poem, The Wanderings of Oisin. The American tradition contains many of these things as well, written by poets like Poe (though I think him mediocre), Longfellow, T.S. Eliot, etc.

In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.
I'm going to try very hard to be polite, like Rose. You are merely trying to flash your academic cred around...and that is okay. You can name drop all over the place. If you want to know what I'M talking about, then learn about people such as Duane Ackerson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duane_Ackerson), Brian Aldiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Aldiss), Mike Allen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Allen_%28poet%29), Michael Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bishop_%28author%29), Bruce Boston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Boston), Ray Bradbury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury), Adam Cornford (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adam_Cornford&action=edit&redlink=1), Keith Allen Daniels (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Keith_Allen_Daniels&action=edit&redlink=1), Thomas M. Disch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_M._Disch), Robert Frazier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Frazier), Daphne Gottlieb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_Gottlieb), Neile Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neile_Graham), Joe Haldeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Haldeman), Andrew Joron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Joron), David C. Kopaska-Merkel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_C._Kopaska-Merkel&action=edit&redlink=1), Ursula K. Le Guin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_K._Le_Guin), Tim Pratt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Pratt), Marge Simon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_Simon), W. Gregory Stewart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Gregory_Stewart), and Jane Yolen.

Honestly dude...you're like on a totally different topic. We are trying very hard to be respectful, but you are making that difficult.

[JBI]

I'm sorry to be rude, Gray Rose, but in the initial post it says "Of course, now we have to define speculative poetry..."

[skelly]

I'm sorry to be rude, Gray Rose, but in the initial post it says "Of course, now we have to define speculative poetry..."
If I edit that out will you go bother someone else?

[scottVee]

I'm not fond of definitions and terminology when it comes to poetry, but the simplest definition of "speculative" is "containing some fantastical element." Whereas mainstream works are completely bound to the real world. Every genre label is open to interpretation, and the "speculative" umbrella has come around to dilute the pool even more. Myths were certainly speculative, going back to prehistory. Saying that all fiction & poetry is speculative because it all speculates about something is just taking the textbook definition of "speculate" and thinking that's all there is. What if? There's a big difference between a story that asks "what if my grandma moved to Florida?" and "what if my grandma nuked Florida?" One happens every day. Snore. The other requires a fantastic element, and could be tackled as a sci-fi story, a horror story, even a fantasy, supernatural or surreal story ... with or without humor. Though maybe Tom Clancy could write the story as a purely mechanical thing with only realistic pieces. Every line can be blurred.

I disagree with Skelly's "awe and wonder" criteria. Those are feelings, and a sunset can evoke awe and wonder without any words at all. Same with the "concise language" criteria -- any good writing uses that. Only the fantastic element sets speculative work apart, in the current sense of the literary term.

Oddly, not every moment of a poem needs to be speculative (or can be). Some totally down-to-earth pieces may have some moment of fantasy or horror. I don't like any trend that makes up a term in order to exclude things from some neat package. I think we should be open (especially as poets!) to wider worlds, never narrowing things out of existence.

Obviously, we need to know what we're writing. To a degree. But if that interferes with following our dreams and muses, then it needs to be overcome, and revisited when the work is done. I only mention this because I've known poets to get stuck in mid-work because they're afraid to stray into some imaginary category. When it comes time to publish our work, there are plenty of markets for speculative poems, and whether we agree on exact terminology or not, good guidelines are pretty clear about what they're looking for.

The SFPA ( http://sfpoetry.com ) is a great resource for learning about "speculative poetry" and the people who write it. BTW, they will have some table space at the Los Angeles Festival of Books this weekend (Zone A, Booth 154), thanks to Falling Star magazine. They've been trying to promote the genre and poets, doing a lot with a small press budget. They'll also be at the Eaton Science Fiction Conference at U.C.Riverside May 16-18 ( http://eatonconference.ucr.edu/ ) ... so stop by if you're in the area.

= scott

[JBI]

I'm going to try very hard to be polite, like Rose. You are merely trying to flash your academic cred around...and that is okay. You can name drop all over the place. If you want to know what I'M talking about, then learn about people such as Duane Ackerson, Brian Aldiss, Mike Allen, Michael Bishop, Bruce Boston, Ray Bradbury, Adam Cornford, Keith Allen Daniels, Thomas M. Disch, Robert Frazier, Daphne Gottlieb, Neile Graham, Joe Haldeman, Andrew Joron, David C. Kopaska-Merkel, Ursula K. Le Guin, Tim Pratt, Marge Simon, W. Gregory Stewart, and Jane Yolen.

Honestly dude...you're like on a totally different topic. We are trying very hard to be respectful, but you are making that difficult.

I'm being disrespectful and an intellectual snob? fine by me, at least I don't go and copy a list of names from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_poetry) to seem smart. I was, if anything, underlying the traditional basis of your so called "Speculative" tradition. I of course, will refrain from posting on the subject in the future, since, Gray has asked so politely, but I just wanted to point out, you are all shine and no substance. Your argument is essentially copied and pasted to make me seem like an idiot, with the opposite result. Besides which, how many of those poets actually identify themselves as "speculative poets."

[Dichroic]

I don't think not being a new phenomenon invalidates a category. When Cyrano de Bergerac wrote "Voyages to the Sun and to the Moon", he didn't think he was writing science fiction: the term didn't exist. Would I include his book in that category? Absolutely. And if I write something with mythopoeic elements and it reminds someone of something Christina Rossetti wrote, I'm not going to say, "No, mine is speculative and that's a new category, so they can't be alike!" Instead, I'm probably going to hug myself and grin quietly at odd moments for the next week.

I agree that "speculative fiction/poetry" is not a new thing and I also agee that it's not a thing with precide boundaries. I just don't think those are reasons not to talk about it.

[scottVee]

Umm, why pick on JBI? He's only pointing out that speculative writing has a long history. It doesn't look like "academic cred" -- it looks like things everyone should know about a genre they claim to be interested in. It's also relevant to trying to plant a definition. Calling someone "academic" (in the sense of "elitist") because they know something you don't is just sad. He's simply adding some information to a discussion, which is how real discussions work.

Speculative writers & poets tend to have all kinds of interesting chunks of knowledge, and it's enlightening to sit back & listen.

[skelly]

I'm being disrespectful and an intellectual snob? fine by me, at least I don't go and copy a list of names from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_poetry) to seem smart. I was, if anything, underlying the traditional basis of your so called "Speculative" tradition. I of course, will refrain from posting on the subject in the future, since, Gray has asked so politely, but I just wanted to point out, you are all shine and no substance. Your argument is essentially copied and pasted to make me seem like an idiot, with the opposite result. Besides which, how many of those poets actually identify themselves as "speculative poets."
So if I had gone to the trouble of actually typing all the names myself, and then providing the exact same links, you would be impressed? Convinced of something? Please.

[skelly]

Umm, why pick on JBI? He's only pointing out that speculative writing has a long history. It doesn't look like "academic cred" -- it looks like things everyone should know about a genre they claim to be interested in. It's also relevant to trying to plant a definition. Calling someone "academic" (in the sense of "elitist") because they know something you don't is just sad. He's simply adding some information to a discussion, which is how real discussions work.

Speculative writers & poets tend to have all kinds of interesting chunks of knowledge, and it's enlightening to sit back & listen.
We're not picking on JBI. We're merely asking him to take his carping elsewhere and let us discuss the poetry that we write, using the terms that we choose.

[Dichroic]

As instructed, I have reposted "Bloodstone, Bronze Ribbons and Bone Roses" in the poetry crit forum: if anyone wants to comment on it, it's here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100626).

In the post I suggested keeping discussion about whether it's a fantasy poem here instead of that forum.

[JBI]

No, but copying and pasting (besides being plagiaristic, though not illegal since Wikipedia is in the public domain) shows nothing but that you can punch speculative poetry into wikipedia. I, of course, will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you have read all those names, but still the direct, and exact, referencing to Wikipedia seems to me a little bit of a sleazy move. It is not you recommending me to "learn about" those poets, but wikipedia, trying to provide an overview of a subject. Had you recommended me to the Wikipedia link, than I wouldn't have pointed it out, but instead you copy and pasted the slew of those names, in the exact same order, without any omissions, in a backhanded attempt to make me look like an ignorant fool. You automatically dismiss my opinion because I do not agree with you, or I present a flash of "academic cred" (ironically since I haven't yet taken English beyond an high school level), without considering the possibility of your own fault. The board is, after all, called poetry discussion. If you don't wish for discussion, why post?

And you are also assuming I don't write poetry that you would call "speculative", therefore I am an ignorant fool who is meddling in a field he knows nothing about. Another fallacious attempt to discredit me.

[Shweta]

JBI, you say time and again that you don't like genre work.
Speculative poetry is definitely unashamed genre work.
It's unsurprising that people will assume you don't know about it, since you state time and time again your disdain of genre work.

Also, this thread exists so that people who want to play with these ideas can talk, not so that we have to explain and/or justify things to you. If you don't like where this thread is going, or the answers you're getting, you're more than welcome to pick up your toys and leave, or else come up with better examples/definitions yourself.

The issue is not the content of your posts, but the attitude -- you seem to assume that people here owe you something. Nobody does.

[JBI]

We're not picking on JBI. We're merely asking him to take his carping elsewhere and let us discuss the poetry that we write, using the terms that we choose.
Who is we?

[scottVee]

Hi JBI,

I enjoyed your comments on genre history. Then again, I have an article about the speculative elements of "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" coming out soon in Illumen. I can't imagine not being fascinated with the roots of literature and storytelling (of all types).

But I'm sure this topic is going to implode, with a few people shouting until all the people with real information go elsewhere. That's what passes for "discussion" these days. See you around. ;-)

Wow, that list of poets was just copied from Wikipedia. Brilliant. Scholarly. Lame.

= scott

[skelly]

I think Shweta said it all...and thank you!

I'm done. Back to the regularly scheduled discussion. :)

[skelly]

Hi JBI,

I enjoyed your comments on genre history. Then again, I have an article about the speculative elements of "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" coming out soon in Illumen. I can't imagine not being fascinated with the roots of literature and storytelling (of all types).

But I'm sure this topic is going to implode, with a few people shouting until all the people with real information go elsewhere. That's what passes for "discussion" these days. See you around. ;-)

Wow, that list of poets was just copied from Wikipedia. Brilliant. Scholarly. Lame.

= scott

Well, I guess not. Mr. Vee, I've published my spec po in the same mags right along with theirs. Yes, I think I have a right to an opinion on this topic. But if it will make you happy, next time I will type the names out myself, and then insert each link individually.

You win!

[Shweta]

Wow, that list of poets was just copied from Wikipedia. Brilliant. Scholarly. Lame.

What exactly is wrong with pointing at the list on wikipedia when the person demanding answers has obviously not done even that much research? It's what I'd do, honestly, so that I wouldn't miss a few obvious names I hadn't read poetry from myself.

Most people who do copy that information have enough knowledge of the area to do a sanity check. "Does the wikipedia article match what I already know? Yes? Then it's good enough for now."

The knee-jerk putting-down of wikipedia is what reads as snobbery lacking in sense to me.

ETA: Allowing that the person using wikipedia as a source is not assuming that it's the be all and end all of scholarship, of course :) It's often an excellent starting point, however, so what better to give someone who seems to have done no research?

[JBI]

JBI, you say time and again that you don't like genre work.
Speculative poetry is definitely unashamed genre work.
It's unsurprising that people will assume you don't know about it, since you state time and time again your disdain of genre work.

Also, this thread exists so that people who want to play with these ideas can talk, not so that we have to explain and/or justify things to you. If you don't like where this thread is going, or the answers you're getting, you're more than welcome to pick up your toys and leave, or else come up with better examples/definitions yourself.

The issue is not the content of your posts, but the attitude -- you seem to assume that people here owe you something. Nobody does.

You time and time again desire to assume I have disdain for "genre work". I simply have disdain for mediocre work, much of which seems to fall under "genre work" as you put it.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that your post was not a direct target against me, and not my ideas, and assume that you have also read the entirety of this thread.

If you have, you will notice my first post, if anything, was a way of expanding the concept of "speculative poetry" to include more historic, and canonical poets. All of my seeming ad hominem posts were in direct retaliation against posts against me (all of which has been seen by you, since you have read the entirety of the thread).

Why then, do you insist on posting this towards me, since as we clearly are to assume, you have read the entire thread, and therefore realize I haven't said anything to provoke such an outburst?

My like or dislike for, as you call it, "genre work" has nothing to do with this discussion. I am a great fan of many of the names that were copied by Skelly, and have read, and written, many poems that could, by the definitions provided, be called "speculative poetry."

It would therefore seem a great insult to your intelligence, to brusquely come onto this post, and hail some sort of mod authority barrage at me for no other reason that to directly use your "influence" to make me seem the weaker (keep in mind, the argument here has not been questioned, rather ironically). I realize this was not your intent, of course, but I could not help but mention these things, to make sure your words are not taken the wrong way.

[Gray Rose]

Thank you Shweta.

ScottVee: can we please, please be polite and respectful to each other? "Lame" is not an adjective I am comfortable with, in this context. I am sure you know your speculative poets as well as Skelly and myself. Why won't you post something about your favorites for the sake of JBI, who seems to think that speculative poetry is all shine and no substance?

Personally, I enjoy the work of Ursula LeGuin, Jo Walton, Mike Allen, JoSelle Vanderhooft, Catherynne Valente, and Jennifer Crow.

JBI, while I do not think we are picking up on you, we do have a problem with your word choices. "Pointless", "meaningless", "ridiculous", "you are all shine and no substance" - the list goes on. You are being rude, you even admit to being rude. Again, I would ask you to reflect on why it feels necessary for you to behave in this way.

[Shweta]

You time and time again desire to assume I have disdain for "genre work". I simply have disdain for mediocre work, much of which seems to fall under "genre work" as you put it.

If my assumptions are wrong, please enlighten me about the work that actually identifies as SF or fantasy that you consider worthy. My assumptions are based on your own repeated statements.

If you have, you will notice my first post, if anything, was a way of expanding the concept of "speculative poetry" to include more historic, and canonical poets. All of my seeming ad hominem posts were in direct retaliation against posts against me (all of which has been seen by you, since you have read the entirety of the thread).
It was pointed out that your expansion was irrelevant to the thread's intent. It'd be fine, IMO, to start another thread for your argument, when the response to your first post was, reasonably, "This is all true but irrelevant to our purposes". However, you continue. Why, if not to argue for the sake of arguing instead of letting a small group of people talk about their common interests, which you don't actually claim to share?

All you seem to be doing is going "Look at me, I'm more scholarly than you". Which gets old.

Why then, do you insist on posting this towards me, since as we clearly are to assume, you have read the entire thread, and therefore realize I haven't said anything to provoke such an outburst?

Having read the whole thread from its inception, I had finally had enough of your derail.

It would therefore seem a great insult to your intelligence, to brusquely come onto this post, and hail some sort of mod authority barrage at me for no other reason that to directly use your "influence" to make me seem the weaker (keep in mind, the argument here has not been questioned, rather ironically).

Excuse me? Where did I use "mod" authority? That would be extreme rudeness to the actual forum mods. As one of the people interested in speculative poetry, I stated my lack of interest in the direction you seem insistent on pushing this thread.

Which is not to say I'm interested in the mythic and classical roots of speculative poetry, mind. I'd love to talk about that, and hey, I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. Just not here. This is where we're talking about the modern phenomenon that has been labelled speculative poetry. As Grayrose pointed out on the previous page, with links.

[JBI]

I can sympathize with the first three words, them being, perhaps, a little over the top, but All Shine and no substance was in direct retaliation.

All of my original posts were intended to provide the information that seems to be the topic of this thread, as posted in the original post, Discuss the form? Share some of our speculative poems? Share market info? Anything, I guess, as long as it concerns speculative poetry.

I confess to my word choices being a little unconventional at times, but that is no reason to discredit an argument, or to ostracize me from a thread. Believe me, I do not think you are picking on me, but I am almost certain other posters, who shall not be named (cough, insert name of choice here, cough) have been. I am ready to move on, but so is the discussion, or I thought so anyway, and so do many other posters, who seem to agree with many of my insights into the theory of "speculative poetry".

[Shweta]

I confess to my word choices being a little unconventional at times, but that is no reason to discredit an argument, or to ostracize me from a thread.

So let's move on :)
Which of the current speculative poets do you like and/or admire, JBI? Context would certainly help the discussion. I'd love to know what you think they're doing that's interesting in terms of the form's historical roots.

Cause I certainly see that in certain poets, but probably see different aspects of it as interesting. And as long as the historical basis is actually related to the modern work, I can see the relevance, and agree it's there.

ETA: Let me put in at least one example, otherwise I'm arguably picking on you/putting you on the spot, which isn't my intent. I love love love the way Jane Yolen contextualizes mythical themes in extremely gritty modern settings. Or perhaps how she construes modern events in mythical terms. I'm not sure which way it goes, and either way, I adore that parralellism. Either way, she is literalizing a deeply fantastical view of the world, without any of the sentiment that annoys me with the Romantics.
Examples (http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/jomapoetry/2007/10/two-poems-by-ja.html).

[JBI]

Shweta, I wonder at where you get your facts. First of all, I have told you numerous times that I am a great fan of works by the authors such as Borges, Marquez, Calvino, Crowley, Lindsay, Le Guin, Robert Jordan, etc. You know all this.

As the first post said, Discuss the form? Share some of our speculative poems? Share market info? Anything, I guess, as long as it concerns speculative poetry.
It would appear that all my original comments fall within those grounds, excluding the last ground, which of course they fall into. So why then, do you put words in my mouth?

Either way, my like or dislike of "genre work" has nothing to do with how right, or how wrong my post is. Observations aren't wrong because the observer doesn't like what he's looking at.

I find it also quite rude, that you assume speculative fiction is a modern phenonmenon, regardless of any real evidence (a website that offers membership into an association for a set fee is hardly a credible source, but rather seems to be a common ground for same-interest readers, not to mention the fact that the magazine, Goblin Fruit, is named after an aspect of a speculative Christina Rossetti poem, Goblin Market, written not in "modern times").

Edit: I posted this before reading shweta's last post, my apologies.

[Shweta]

Shweta, I wonder at where you get your facts. First of all, I have told you numerous times that I am a great fan of works by the authors such as Borges, Marquez, Calvino, Crowley, Lindsay, Le Guin, Robert Jordan, etc. You know all this.

No, I know that you used to admite Jordan and Le Guin, but in the last year or so haven't had anything good to say that I've heard about any of 'em, and those you like, you justify as being magical realism and not fantasy. But this is more of a derail than your original, so let's stop it or take it to PM.

I find it also quite rude, that you assume speculative fiction is a modern phenonmenon, regardless of any real evidence

I don't assume anything. I'm only saying that "speculative poetry" is a label for a self-consciously modern phenomenon with an explicit focus on reinterpretations and recontextualizations of older themes.

I'm not saying that older poetry doesn't speculate, or isn't speculative, simply that the term refers to a particular movement.

You're saying something that I understand as analogous to "New Weird can't possibly refer to the group of people who call themselves New Weird, because Lovecraft was pretty new and weird in his time!"

[skelly]

Shweta, I wonder at where you get your facts. First of all, I have told you numerous times that I am a great fan of works by the authors such as Borges, Marquez, Calvino, Crowley, Lindsay, Le Guin, Robert Jordan, etc. You know all this.

As the first post said,
It would appear that all my original comments fall within those grounds, excluding the last ground, which of course they fall into. So why then, do you put words in my mouth?

Either way, my like or dislike of "genre work" has nothing to do with how right, or how wrong my post is. Observations aren't wrong because the observer doesn't like what he's looking at.

I find it also quite rude, that you assume speculative fiction is a modern phenonmenon, regardless of any real evidence (a website that offers membership into an association for a set fee is hardly a credible source, but rather seems to be a common ground for same-interest readers, not to mention the fact that the magazine, Goblin Fruit, is named after an aspect of a speculative Christina Rossetti poem, Goblin Market, written not in "modern times").

Edit: I posted this before reading shweta's last post, my apologies.
This thread, by the same token, is a common ground for same interest poets. An interest that you seem not to share. So why precisely are you here, JBI?

[Gray Rose]

I can sympathize with the first three words, them being, perhaps, a little over the top, but All Shine and no substance was in direct retaliation.

"In direct retaliation" - hmm. IMHO "direct retaliation" does not justify rudeness, and is hardly dignified.

All of my original posts were intended to provide the information that seems to be the topic of this thread, as posted in the original post,

While I am thankful that you provided me with an information about the Russian Romantics (whom I have been studying and teaching at a graduate level for the last seven years), I am less thankful for the tone in which your information was couched.

Most of our cultural production is based on what came before. One can argue that both our mainstream literary production and our speculative production harks back to the Classics and/or classical mythology. Regardless of whether this is true in actuality, such claim hardly invalidates the existence and the need for both mainstream or speculative production.

I for one do not feel comfortable placing my work on the same scale as the classic poets you mentioned. I am not playing in that league. I just want to improve my work. As I told you before in chat, I spent some time in the vicinity of poets whose shoelaces I am not worthy of tying, and that taught me some humility and a not uncertain dislike of grand statements (which, it seems to me, you are making).

I confess to my word choices being a little unconventional at times, but that is no reason to discredit an argument, or to ostracize me from a thread. Believe me, I do not think you are picking on me, but I am almost certain other posters, who shall not be named (cough, insert name of choice here, cough) have been. I am ready to move on, but so is the discussion, or I thought so anyway, and so do many other posters, who seem to agree with many of my insights into the theory of "speculative poetry".
If you get offended by other people's "unconventional" word choices, you should be more careful with yours. Indeed, I think that careful consideration of word choices at all times behooves a poet.

Let's then, by all means, move on.

[Shweta]

Let's then, by all means, move on.

Who do you love and why, Rose? Pick one :)

[JBI]

This thread, by the same token, is a common ground for same interest poets. An interest that you seem not to share. So why precisely are you here, JBI?
Who says I have no interest in speculative fiction poets? You and what army. Especially since you haven't even defined what it is that is the same.

[Gray Rose]

Who do you love and why, Rose? Pick one :)

My favorite Russian Romantic poet is Fyodor Tiutchev, who is hardly speculative. This is one of my favorite poems (original here (http://www.kostyor.ru/poetry/tyutchev/?n=19)):

Ne rassuzhdai, ne hlopochi:
bezumstvo i'shet, glupost' sudit,
Dnevnye rany snom lechi,
A zavtra byt' chemu, to budet.

Zhivya, umej vse perezhit' -
Pechal', i radost', i trevogu;
Chego zhelat'? O chem tuzhit'?
Den' perezhit: i slava bogu!

Translation mine.
Do not argue, do not fret:
Insanity seeks and folly judges.
Heal your daily hurts by sleep,
and tomorrow, let it be what it will be.

While alive, learn to survive everything:
sadness, and joy, and anxiety.
What would you wish for? Why would you grieve?
You survived the day: thank God for that!

But as I said, he is not speculative, nor is Afanasii Fet.
Pushkin and Lermontov both have speculative work. Pushkin's fairytale poems are very fine, but he himself said that the finest was Ershov's "Little Humpback Horse", with which I wholeheartedly concur.

Russian version, with some classic and wonderful illustrations (http://az.lib.ru/e/ershow_p_p/text_0020.shtml)
English version (http://az.lib.ru/e/ershow_p_p/text_0030.shtml)

Among the Silver Age poets, the most speculative (and a personal favorite) is Nikolai Gumilev.

[skelly]

I think one of the best examples of purely speculative poetry..i.e. that which is not specifically SF, is Rezmerski's "A Dream of Heredity." I wish I could share it, but I cannot find it online. I have it in my 1987 Rhysling Anthology.

I think I have an old Star*Line in which Melanie Rawls pubbed some poetry. Have to look that up. BIG Steve Sneyd fan.

[Shweta]

My favorite Russian Romantic poet is Fyodor Tiutchev, who is hardly speculative.
(snip)

Among the Silver Age poets, the most speculative (and a personal favorite) is Nikolai Gumilev.

I think one of the best examples of purely speculative poetry..i.e. that which is not specifically SF, is Rezmerski's "A Dream of Heredity." I wish I could share it, but I cannot find it online. I have it in my 1987 Rhysling Anthology.

I think I have an old Star*Line in which Melanie Rawls pubbed some poetry. Have to look that up. BIG Steve Sneyd fan.

This is lovely. You guys are opening my eyes to people I've never seen.
On that note, I'll tentatively note Mary Anne Mohanraj (http://www.mamohanraj.com/04/after.html). Some her her poems I'm "meh" about, some I love. I don't think she's on the same level as the greats mentioned here, of course, more like... a level I could get to if I work at it.

Of her poems I'd like to draw attention to gold rose dust (http://www.mamohanraj.com/02/gold.html), because it makes me grin. And because it's doing precisely what I like - pulling up something old and tweaking it. In this case, back to its original, except that the Sleeping Beauty in it has the neutered expectations we get from more modern versions of the story... so she's packing the history of the fairy tale itself into the heroine's mind.

ETA: Okay, no, I cannot leave the post alone until I've also mentioned John M Ford as a squeeing fangirl. He makes my jaw drop. How could anyone be that smart? And dammit how could he die so young :cry:

[skelly]

I loved that poem Shweta...thank you for sharing the link. Made me think of Tanith Lee. Night folks.

[JBI]

From William Blake's preface to his long poem Milton

And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold,
Bring me my Arrows of desire,
Bring me my Spear—O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green & pleasant land.

Can be seen with the full work, and Blake's plate illustrations here.
http://www.blakearchive.org/exist/blake/archive/object.xq?objectid=milton.a.illbk.02&java=yes

[Shweta]

The best irony of that poem is that it's been turned into a hymn. Like Blake wasn't a heretic :rolleyes:
I do love it. But I'd like to hear what you like about it, Jon. I personally love the contrast between what I'd call mythic -- the religious imagery -- and the "dark satanic mills" -- the physical groundedness in the world of his time. The way he uses that dichotomy.

How 'bout you?

ETA: I'd also say that, because of that dichotomy and the way he's using it, Blake's closer in feel to the modern speculative poets than many of the other people they take their inspiration from. Thoughts?

[JBI]

Blake is perhaps the most complex of the poets I have encountered. His work ranges from simple, to infinitely complex. Even his shortest poems, The Sick Rose for example, seems to contain infinite possibilities and implications within it.

His longer works, especially his mythopoeic books are extremely difficult. They require, I would imagine, years of study and comparisons to Biblical and Miltonic texts, in addition to a whole slew of other sources, to actually decipher. I know that Northrop Frye, who is perhaps the founder of the Mythopoeic school of criticism, and a heavy influence on speculative poetry, especially surrounding him in The University of Toronto around the 50s and 60s, wrote a ground breaking study of his work, but he still puzzles many scholars.

I think, especially with his shorter works, that he leaves the reader with hundreds of possibilities, each easily as plausible. Take for instance this poem from Songs of Experience:

I went to the Garden of Love,
And saw what I never had seen;
A Chapel was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And ‘Thou shalt not’ writ over the door;
So I turned to the Garden of Love
That so many sweet flowers bore.

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tombstones where flowers should be;
And priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
And binding with briars my joys and desires.

How many possible explanations can you create for this poem? how many possible life events can you relate to this poem? I don't think there is anyone who cannot empathize to some degree, even if they are talking about a completely different meaning than the author had in mind.

Yes, Blake was a heretic, by church standards, and a true mystic, and perhaps the most powerful artistic mind the British Isles ever produced, if you factor in that he is also as well known for his beautiful, and unique plate designs that accompany his fantastic poetry.

His influence on speculative poetry is undeniable if you look at his influence on Frye, and the subsequent events his theories had on the shaping of literary thought.

[JBI]

On a more chilling note, check out this Goethe Poem
Original German

Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind;
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er faßt ihn sicher, er hält ihn warm.

"Mein Sohn, was birgst du so bang dein Gesicht?"
"Siehst, Vater, du den Erlkönig nicht?
Den Erlenkönig mit Kron und Schweif?"
"Mein Sohn, es ist ein Nebelstreif."

"Du liebes Kind, komm, geh mit mir!
Gar schöne Spiele spiel' ich mit dir;
Manch' bunte Blumen sind an dem Strand,
Meine Mutter hat manch gülden Gewand."

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht,
Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht?"
"Sei ruhig, bleib ruhig, mein Kind;
In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind."

"Willst, feiner Knabe, du mit mir gehn?
Meine Töchter sollen dich warten schön;
Meine Töchter führen den nächtlichen Reihn,
Und wiegen und tanzen und singen dich ein."

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort
Erlkönigs Töchter am düstern Ort?"
"Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh es genau:
Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau."

"Ich liebe dich, mich reizt deine schöne Gestalt;
Und bist du nicht willig, so brauch ich Gewalt."
"Mein Vater, mein Vater, jetzt faßt er mich an!
Erlkönig hat mir ein Leids getan!"

Dem Vater grauset's, er reitet geschwind,
Er hält in Armen das ächzende Kind,
Erreicht den Hof mit Müh' und Not;
In seinen Armen das Kind war tot.

English Translation
Who rides so late through night and wind?
It is the father with his child.
He has the little one well in the arm
He holds him secure, he holds him warm.

"My son, why hide your face in fear?"
"See you not, Father, the Erlking?
The Erlking with crown and flowing cloak?"
"My son, it is a wisp of fog."

"You sweet child, come along with me!
Such wonderful games I'll play with you;
Many lovely flowers are at the shore,
My mother has many golden garments."

"My father, my father, and do you not hear,
What the Erlking quietly promises to me?"
"Be calm, stay calm, my child;
The wind is rustling the dry leaves."

"Won't you come along with me, my fine boy?
My daughters shall attend to you so nicely;
My daughters do their nightly dance,
And they will rock you and dance you and sing you to sleep."

"My father, my father, do you not see there,
Erlking's daughters in that dark place?"
"My son, my son, I see it definitely:
It is the willow trees looking so grey."

"I love you; I'm charmed by your beautiful shape;
And if you are not willing, then I will use force."
"My father, my father, now he has taken hold of me!
Erlking has hurt me!"

The father shudders, he rides swiftly,
He holds in arm the groaning child,
He reaches the farmhouse with effort and urgency;
In his arms, the child was dead.

And for those of you who are interested, Schubert's famous Lieder of the poem, sung by the incomparable Fischer-Dieskau: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5B6nysheec

[JBI]

It seems that all major speculative poems are tying to express thoughts on mature themes, such as death, love, etc, meanwhile using speculative devices to create hypothetical situations, or symbolic representations.

[Dichroic]

ETA: Let me put in at least one example, otherwise I'm arguably picking on you/putting you on the spot, which isn't my intent. I love love love the way Jane Yolen contextualizes mythical themes in extremely gritty modern settings. Or perhaps how she construes modern events in mythical terms. I'm not sure which way it goes, and either way, I adore that parralellism. Either way, she is literalizing a deeply fantastical view of the world, without any of the sentiment that annoys me with the Romantics.
Examples (http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/jomapoetry/2007/10/two-poems-by-ja.html).

I'm actually not seeing fantastic elements in those particular poems. (I enjoy Yolen's writing, but even in fiction she doesn't write only fantasy - I've just finished The Queen's Own Jester, which is purely fictionalized history, autobiography of Mary, Queen of Scots' female jester.) The first poem, After His Death, especially, is taken directly from actual experience. (I've read enough of her blog to know that.) Certainly she universalizes the experience, but that's a common thread of poetry.

On the other hand, I didn't know Yolen wrote poems at all, so this recommendation is a win for me on those grounds!

And I'll return the favor: I haven't yet seen anyone mention John M (Mike) Ford, but his Winter Solstice, Camelot Station (https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9711&L=CELTIC-L&P=R18841) is rapidly becoming something of a modern classic. (At least, it's the sort of thing people love, who like that sort of thing,) Also, a glorious jumble of commentary, short short fiction, poetry, and lyrics is collected at Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008034.html). Which in turn reminds me of the beautiful commitment ceremony he wrote (Yes, I would call it poetry), and went through with his beloved Elise, and a poem of hers to him, both of which she posted here (http://elisem.livejournal.com/903525.html) after his death.

ETA: Whoops, didn't see Shweta's mention of Ford until just now.

[Shweta]

I'm actually not seeing fantastic elements in those particular poems.

Um.
In the first one she's talking about what a man might have seen after he died... even if it's true experience (and I'm not surprised), it's speculative. But then, I'd call a lot of religious assumptions speculative, myself :)

In the second, it's more the metaphor being literalized, I guess. Not exactly a fantastic element, but certainly using the tools of fantasy. Which is something I love about Yolen - she does that even when the subject matter isn't overtly fantastical, and I think it gives her writing great richness.

But yes, those are borderline. As I recall, some of her other poems are much more clearly speculative :)

On the other hand, I didn't know Yolen wrote poems at all, so this recommendation is a win for me on those grounds!

And I'll return the favor: I haven't yet seen anyone mention John M (Mike) Ford, but his Winter Solstice, Camelot Station (https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9711&L=CELTIC-L&P=R18841) is rapidly becoming something of a modern classic.

I did mention Mike Ford, but not with any links. And I don't actually know that one, thank you!
I do want to pull up a few of his sonnets for us to think about, but was too lazy to do the websurfing yet. Thanks much. Have had brain dribble out my ears, so haven't been responding here.

[skelly]

Di, I critted your latest poem here:

crit of Di's poem (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2298422&postcount=6)

And I'd like to offer one of my own for folks to look at. I posted it here quite awhile back, but it didn't see much response. I'm still not sure if it is acceptable to re-run a poem that has already been posted...but I'd love to hear what other spec poet's think. Note, it is heavily edited from the originally posted version, which was itself heavily edited from the originally published version (which was itself heavily edited from the original draft that I wrote back when most the references in that one stanza where actually relevant to something...damn I'm getting old)

After the Fall of the Astronomers (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1456045&postcount=1)

[skelly]

Well, that didn't last long. And, oddly enough, we have JBI to thank for the fact that it lasted as long as it did.

Kinda funny, in a way.

Goodbye.

[Shweta]

:Wha:

I didn't realize it was gone.

[JBI]

The thread is still here. Perhaps if you posted your insights, or a poem you particularly enjoy, we could fuel some new discussion.

[JBI]

Er, how about this Lermontov poem (source: Wikipedia),
THE PRINCESS OF THE TIDE

One day swimming his horse was a prince by the sea
When he heard a voice cry: “Over here! Look at me!”

The steed started and snorted, but ‘twas nothing to him
He shook off a spray and continued to swim.

Said the voice: “I am born to the King of the Tide”
“Wilt thou one lordly night in my sweet arms abide?”

And behold! From the wake, there a hand did emerge
Reaching out for the bridle of silk on the surge.

A young, pretty head did the brine then reveal
With long braided hair draped in sea-grass of bright teal.

Two dark blue eyes burned with passion’s pure fire
Sea foam rolled on her cheeks like white pearls of desire.

Thought the prince: “For this moment I surely was made . . .”
And he deftly reached out to catch hold of a braid.

He caught her and held her with a warrior’s arm
She splashed and she struggled with panicked alarm

Heedless he dragged her up onto the shore
Then his shouts to his comrades did loudly outpour

“Fellows! Come and see! I am calling to you!”
“Look what I have fished out of bottomless blue!”

“What are you waiting for! Do not delay!”
“You’ve not seen such beauty in many a day!”

And then he turned back to look down on his prize
But alas! The fire was already leaving her eyes!

For there lying limp on the hot golden sand
Was her green tail, like a fish, out of place on the land

It was covered in scales like that of a snake
Already coiling and drying as the sun did it bake

Sweat streamed from her brow presaging her doom
And her eyes quickly darkened with ominous gloom

Her poor hands grew pale as she clutched at the sand
Her lips whispered something he could not understand

The prince walked away for he could not abide:
Would he ever forget the princess of the tide?

--translated from the Russian by Andrew C. Miller

[Gray Rose]

Well, that didn't last long. And, oddly enough, we have JBI to thank for the fact that it lasted as long as it did.

Kinda funny, in a way.

Goodbye.

Err, what happened?
Critted your poem btw, skelly. Should have posted here too.

[Shweta]

Actually I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the different poems; before I manage to shake the confusion out of my opinions there are other poems to think about :)
I'd sort of like to hear more about what you guys think re: the poems already posted, because I'm learning at everyone's feet here.

[JBI]

The general feature of all of them seems to be that the speculative elements are used as metaphors for realistic things. This isn't the case with every speculative poem, but these ones all seem to have that feature, for instance, the metaphors in Blake seem to pull at the church and industrial revolution occurring at his time, and the drastic changes happening in the wake of the French Revolution. Goethe's Erlkonig seems to be an omen of death, which is inescapable for the child, reflecting a real-world deadly illness, or deadly threat, which cannot be avoided, but must be suffered. Lermontov's Princess of the Tide, I think, seems to be Lermontov himself, trapped within his confines, and unable to break free, coincidentally written just before his death in a duel (of course, I'm sure Gray Rose can say a lot more on that one than me).

[scottVee]

That was a good range of poems to ponder. Certainly a lot of speculation, even if the elements differ from a stricter genre view. It's hard to draw a line between dreams & visions on one hand and existential & religious pondering on the other. Poets can find a way to link blades of grass or grains to sand to realms of greater meaning.

"The Erl-King" by Goethe (the German poem given above) certainly looks like a more "modern" horror piece, but it shows how horror really hasn't changed much over the ages. There are always things at the edges of our known world that threaten us, things that cannot be appeased. That poem could have come from almost any culture, any time, using any personified primal force to show how frail our lives are. Whether you go with Lovecraft's definition of "supernatural literature", more modern terms, or older mythical terms, that poem always seems to come up. ;-)

[Dichroic]

One thing I find is that because so much of my reading has been speculative stuff for so long, that worldview permeates things I write even on mundane subjects. For example, my poem about books, posted for crit over here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99971) (comments welcome). I suspect there's no speculative element there for anyone else, but for me it's lurking one level down - because I know just *what* books are on those shelves, and in how many of them a book is very literally a portal to another world

To speak of better poets, I think the effect Shweta spoke of earlier in Jane Yolen is similar; another example is Poe, whose Annabel Lee takes it to three levels: the literal one is fantastic, with Death, her "high-born kinsman"bearing her away; on the next level down it's mundane, in that all that happens is that he loved her and she dies. But at base, I think it's fantastic again, because the whole thing feels like a fairy tale and uses the language of one to give this particular death added significance.

[Shweta]

So rather than lurk until I feel like I have a clue, I'm going to jump in with both feet and post a poem (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100950).

many things I'm unsure of, but I'd love to hear what people think, and if it's in any way useful to use it to talk about what makes something speculative poetry in general, that would be great.
Cause I'm not sure it's speculative, exactly.

[skelly]

YAY!

Now that &^%&%*%#^ has been banned, I would like to humbly ask permission to be allowed back into this excellent discussion.

Shweta...I loved your poem and I'm headed over there right now to crit it. If I was editing a spec po mag, and you sent this, I would certainly consider it spec po. It fits all my criteria (for what my criteria is worth). But perhaps the bigger question is what do you consider the poem to be? When you wrote it, where you seeking to inspire awe, or wonder? Did you purposely chose striking images, or portray the fantastical elements that exist in the poem?

I do think you set out to write a speculative poem...or you write nothing but. I don't think they happen by accident.

Love the poem, btw.

[Shweta]

YAY!

Now that &^%&%*%#^ has been banned, I would like to humbly ask permission to be allowed back into this excellent discussion.
:D
And once I have a brain I will be thinking about the poems. I have half-formed thoughts about modern speculative poetry versus the grand old tradition of mystical/magical/mythical poetry, and I do think we're doing something different now. I hate to give postmodernism credit for anything but I think we have more conscious commentary/deconstruction, not necessarily in the poets, but in the ways poems are read now, and that's affecting the way speculative imagery is used.

Shweta...I loved your poem and I'm headed over there right now to crit it.
And thank you so much! :)

But perhaps the bigger question is what do you consider the poem to be? When you wrote it, where you seeking to inspire awe, or wonder? Did you purposely chose striking images, or portray the fantastical elements that exist in the poem?
There's an assumption here, which is that I have the faintest clue what I'm doing. What happened is that I said, "Right brain, bedtime", and my brain said "I am a serpent, sleek in the sunshine; I am a sparrow that pecks at your crumbs" and I said "ooo...kay..." and it said "Just write it down already and I'll give you the next line."
Obviously it had changed a bit by the time I staggered off to bed an hour and a half later, but I can explain my poetry about as well as I can explain my dreams. Which is part of why I would really like to figure out some critical skills beyon 11th grade english :D

I do think you set out to write a speculative poem...or you write nothing but. I don't think they happen by accident.
I am not sure I write nothing but; I actually just posted a poem in crit that I wish was speculative, but I didn't make any of it up.
But I don't set out to write stuff exactly; it is more that lines pop into my head. I have to write, or the voices in my head won't shut up and let me sleep :D

[skelly]

You bring up a lot of interesting points, Shweta. Let me mull over it while I snore :D Honestly, must...have...sleep...

But I'll be back. This is a topic very dear to my heart.

[Gray Rose]

:D
And once I have a brain I will be thinking about the poems. I have half-formed thoughts about modern speculative poetry versus the grand old tradition of mystical/magical/mythical poetry, and I do think we're doing something different now. I hate to give postmodernism credit for anything but I think we have more conscious commentary/deconstruction, not necessarily in the poets, but in the ways poems are read now, and that's affecting the way speculative imagery is used.

I think that there's quite a big difference. If we imagine the whole of a mainstream poetry on a timeline, or take, let's say, the Norton Anthology, then we can speculate about the development of forms and themes within this timeline. I hesitate to call this a tradition, but it is not an improper term, since later poets looked back at the earlier ones, whether in an attempt to emulate, or innovate, or break the existing molds.

What does speculative poetry go back to? It is a side branch, as I see it, because while many of the speculative poets are clearly as educated in mainstream poetry as are mainstream poets. But - what do we inherit? Is it romantic mythical poetry? I actually do not think so.

Is speculative poetry to be defined in opposition to mainstream poetry? Again, in terms of form, many of us write free verse, the form which would be appropriate for mainstream mags. On the other hand, many of us use more traditional forms, which, alas, are largely unacceptable in litmags of today. In speculative poetry, rhyme does not disqualify a contribution.

So... is it content? I think we are entering dangerous waters here. The problem is that trying to argue for the presence or absence of the mythical is entirely fallacious. Mythical elements had been used by humans in artistic expression since, well, Adam. We cannot claim any monopoly on the mythical.

I have to wrap this up now, but this is just to say that I still maintain that it is the question of - not necessarily intent- but allegiance.

And a personal anecdote I wanted to share with you folks, now that the trust issue had been resolved. In 1997 I wrote a poem entitled, "The first conversation of Daie and Thomar". My best friend at that time, a published and award-winning mainstream poet in Hebrew, told me that this poem had to be published. None of us knew any English poetry mags. We came up with Poetry Magazine. I got my form R in the mail five months later. What can I say? If only I knew of existence of speculative poetry and speculative poetry journals, I think my life would be very different. I wouldn't have destroyed this poem, or the ones that came after. But that one, yeah, that one was the best damn thing I ever wrote.

[Shweta]

I have to wrap this up now, but this is just to say that I still maintain that it is the question of - not necessarily intent- but allegiance.

I think I agree, but what is it our intent/allegiance is to? It's not "mainstream", but from what I've seen, it's also not so much canonical SF or Fantasy.

If only I knew of existence of speculative poetry and speculative poetry journals, I think my life would be very different. I wouldn't have destroyed this poem, or the ones that came after. But that one, yeah, that one was the best damn thing I ever wrote.
not that I beat dead horses, but maybe this is why I think one should never ever EVER delete anything?

[Gray Rose]

not that I beat dead horses, but maybe this is why I think one should never ever EVER delete anything?

Because of one's upbringing. Because one's mother encouraged one to destroy one's work because it was shamefully imperfect. Because one is lucky to have started to get over this, but because one realizes there is still a very long way to go.

[Shweta]

Because of one's upbringing. Because one's mother encouraged one to destroy one's work because it was shamefully imperfect. Because one is lucky to have started to get over this, but because one realizes there is still a very long way to go.
one should send everything to MEEEE! Then one will have a record :)
:Hug2:

[Dichroic]

I think I agree, but what is it our intent/allegiance is to? It's not "mainstream", but from what I've seen, it's also not so much canonical SF or Fantasy.


not that I beat dead horses, but maybe this is why I think one should never ever EVER delete anything?

But what is "canonical" SF or fantasy? Considering you're talking about a field that stretches from E.E. "Doc" Smith to Charlie Stross and Elizabeth Bear in one direction, and from Verne to Emma Bull (and, well, Elizabeth Bear) in another, that's a very broad field.

Somewhat offtopic, but now that I've mentioned both Bull and Bear (no, don't run away, I'm not talking about the stock market!) has anyone else been following their joint project Shadow Unit? There are two other writers, Will Shetterley and Sarah Monette, involved, and an artist, Amanda somebody. It's not poetry, but it is a collaborative online fictional venture unlike much else out there.

[Shweta]

But what is "canonical" SF or fantasy? Considering you're talking about a field that stretches from E.E. "Doc" Smith to Charlie Stross and Elizabeth Bear in one direction, and from Verne to Emma Bull (and, well, Elizabeth Bear) in another, that's a very broad field.

Sure, it's a broad field/fields, but there are clusters of more "normal" parts and less.

I'd say the large hulking center of fantasy is Epic Fantasy, which often, sadly, bleeds into Extruded Fantasy Product. You know the type. We Must Have Quests And Wise Mentors And Dark Lords Because Tolkien Did fantasy.

And I'd say the two centers of SF at this point are nearish-future hard SF (which at this point seems obsessed with brain-as-hardware mind-as-software nonsense, which is why I've been avoiding it) and the generally softer, often more psychological, space opera (which some people will smack me for, but really, space opera is a grand old tradition in the field).

Around each of those there are all sorts of other clusters, which I personally find more exciting. And I think I've seen speculative poetry that could be friends with many of those clusters. What I haven't seen (and maybe this is selection bias) is spec. poetry that really falls into near-future hard SF/space opera/epic-fantasy.

Somewhat offtopic, but now that I've mentioned both Bull and Bear (no, don't run away, I'm not talking about the stock market!) :ROFL: has anyone else been following their joint project Shadow Unit? There are two other writers, Will Shetterley and Sarah Monette, involved, and an artist, Amanda somebody. It's not poetry, but it is a collaborative online fictional venture unlike much else out there. I haven't caught up with it and I really really need to.

[Gray Rose]

[quote=Shweta;2316110]I think I agree, but what is it our intent/allegiance is to? It's not "mainstream", but from what I've seen, it's also not so much canonical SF or Fantasy.

I am not sure how to explain allegiance , but I think that speculative poets read primarily, or heavily, genre literature and their thinking/conceptualizing is influenced by it, on the other hand mainstream poets might not find this literature central to their reading experiences.

Allegiance can also be understood in terms of belonging to a social group. Skelly here kindly pointed me in the direction of SFPA and related journals, and I have been very happy in this company ever since.

[skelly]

I get cookware for that, Rose. A toaster, to be specific :D

I am a firm believer that the "social group" aspect of speculative poetry (as it is pubbed by mags like Star*line et al) is indispensible to the form. Like it or not, 99.99999999999% of the people who read speculative poetry write speculative poetry. That's what makes it confusing and exciting at the same time.

Anyway...end of a long week. I'm taking my old ass to bed. I'm gonna dig back into this thread tomorrow tho...lot of great issues raised.

Onward! :)

[Gray Rose]

Skelly, do you still need a toaster? :) Serious.

Here's a poemsickle. Tell me what you think.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2353766#post2353766

[skelly]

Read it and commented Rose. Overall enjoyed it.

Our toaster's doing pretty good. We're not big toast people, as it turns out. Thank you for bringing this thread back to life. It will obviously be a slow thread...there's what, three of us? But at least we know where to find each other.

[Dichroic]

Read it and commented Rose. Overall enjoyed it.

Our toaster's doing pretty good. We're not big toast people, as it turns out. Thank you for bringing this thread back to life. It will obviously be a slow thread...there's what, three of us? But at least we know where to find each other.

Four, at least :-)

[Gray Rose]

Hah! I was about to say that :)

And other people may join over time.

As for toasters and such... I am yet to get a single check for a single poem of mine, and I haven't sold anything in ages, so my toast-ability is to be questioned :) :)

[Dichroic]

Gray's poemsickle reminded me to post this one (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2357441#post2357441). Though there's nothing particularly fantastic about it (except maybe the metaphor or pulsar as heartbeat) the whole thing was created to try to capture the sense of wonder I got from its title.

And if you think that part of what makes something speculative is being born within the specfic community, well, it's not a viewpoint I entirely agree with, but I don't disagree either: I don't think it's a requirement but in that community do tend to be inspired by the fantastic even when not expicitly in that vein. I mention it because in that respect this poem has impeccable lineage; they were inspired by some earrings (http://lioness.net/L/ea/eaSong4AWildNebula/) by Elise Mattheson, no slouch of a poem / SF writer in her own right as well as the creator of jewelry with a strong sense of fantasy.

Crit much appreciated!

[Shweta]

Four, at least :-)

Well, three, since I still lack brain.
One of these days I will up and admit that I am badly allergic to cats. *sigh*

Also, you have Elise earrings? That's awesome :)

[Dichroic]

Well, three, since I still lack brain.
One of these days I will up and admit that I am badly allergic to cats. *sigh*

Also, you have Elise earrings? That's awesome :)

No, I don't have those (they were quite expensive due to the handmade beads). I just loved the title. But I *do* have an Elise necklace-crown and hair ornament! :-)

[Shweta]

But I *do* have an Elise necklace-crown and hair ornament! :-)
...Is there a seething jealousy smiley?

[Dichroic]

...Is there a seething jealousy smiley?

Well, if you believe Elise that the pieces choose their owners, it doesn't make sense to be envious - just sad that yours hasn't come along yet. (Or maybe that the piece and the funding haven't happened to come by at the same time.) I will never have a pair of her earrings, anyway, unless they involve really complex wirework: I have a "don't buy what I can make rule". But her wirework is *way* beyond my skills!

To get back to our topic here, half the fun of her stuff for me is the inspiration, anyway. And this time I got not beads but words from it!

[skelly]

Gray's poemsickle reminded me to post this one (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2357441#post2357441). Though there's nothing particularly fantastic about it (except maybe the metaphor or pulsar as heartbeat) the whole thing was created to try to capture the sense of wonder I got from its title.

Crit much appreciated!
Headed for work right now, Di, but I'll read and respond to this tonight.

Hi Shweta! :)

ETA: AH! See, I forgot what you said about the "sense of wonder" that inspired you...which dove-tails perfectly into my crit of your poem, which you will find here-----> crit of Di's poem (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2359849&postcount=8)

[Dichroic]

I've updated Song For a Wild Nebula now, by the way. Tripled the length :-)

I guess Steppe was right when he said poems tell the poet their own length - this one just hadn't finished speaking yet :-)

[Shweta]

I've updated Song For a Wild Nebula now, by the way. Tripled the length :-)

Still not much brain. I'm only awake because of hiccups. But I'm stalking you to say :LilLove:

[Dichroic]

Just in case there *are* more than four people reading here, I want to note that there's been a bunch of excellent speculative stuff on the crit forum lately: Gray Rose's Juvaini's History (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103782), Skelly's The Blonde Barbarian Woman of my Dreams (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103353)(which, I confess, I was expecting to be something completely different from the title), and, a bit less unequivocally speculative, Jenny's Sin Eater (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103757).

[Jenny]

And the spec poets here are very nice about helping those of us shyly sticking a toe in the spec ocean (the water's kind of tingly and cool, but strange things grab your ankles).

[Dichroic]

And yes, it can totally be argued whether some of these fall within the "speculative" mantle - there were also a few I debated including and it would be easy to make a case that some belong here. I just thought I'd post a short list and see if anyone was up for discussion - I'd love to talk about why I consider these speculative:

Hitchhiker's Eulogy (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108997), by Angelinity
I Won't (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109241), by moblues
Cosmogony Arachnidae (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109366), by Dichroic
The Phone (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109075), by Steppe
A Night at the Uptowner (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108621), by Jack Flash
He kept his women thin (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108359), by Ariana

[moblues]

I asked Scott if this could be considered spec and he said not exactly, but post it anyway to see what everyone thinks. At the very least, I hope you enjoy the read.



dead time
I'm silver
in gold

wanting

dark hound
menace
seeking

to enter

your


palace





Mike

[Shweta]

I think it works better as non-spec, Mike. The wanting/dark <X>/menace/seeking just hits my "dark lord" cliche buttons if I try to read it as spec, but if I read it as non-spec it's more or less fine.

It's possible however that it could be spec, and those are the wrong words.

[moblues]

*Sigh*. I try to avoid cliches at all costs. I'm trying to get a handle on spec so I can contribute to Scott's thread. I'll keep plugging along until I figure it out.




Mike


Will write minimalism for pizza

[Shweta]

*Sigh*. I try to avoid cliches at all costs. I'm trying to get a handle on spec so I can contribute to Scott's thread. I'll keep plugging along until I figure it out.

Yeah, unfortunately, any word associated with Star Wars (and Dark and Menace are up there) hits automatic cliche buttons for me. Which is sad, cause they used up some awesome words.

And some of these words would be fine in more context (for example, silver/gold alone is hitting close to cliche, but I'm silver/in gold is not), but... when it's single words that are like 25% of the poem, it's a problem.

And again, it's only when I try to read it as spec.

[moblues]

Now you lost me. Star Wars? I guess I'll stick with minimalism.




Mike

[moblues]

This is a horror piece, Shweta. This has nothing to do with Sky-Fi. I hate that term, yet it was applicable.




Mike

[skelly]

I think that you have something going on with this poem, Mike. Shweta is resonding in her way much as I did in that uber long PM I sent. I sincerely hope that you google around about ivan arguelles...I really see you going that direction if you get into the speculative sphere.

Of course, I could be wrong.

In the PM I said that nothing about this poem "screams" speculative poetry. Nothing about it screams horror poetry either. In fact, upon first and later reads, I thought you were edging toward heroic fantasy.

But, all of that aside, it is an excellent poem. In the PM I told you it sruck me as snapshots of some action scene flashed before me at random. I am so very excited about that. As to how to make it more obvious "horror," I leave that up to you. An old-school "sf poet" will be of little use to you.

I really hope you don't throw up your hands. Pursue it a little further.

:)

[Shweta]

It reads more like horror than SF to me. But those bits of word choice will I think be worn-out for many spec. readers because of the genre-specific cliches. Which is totally not your fault, Mike, but knowing about 'em will help you avoid 'em.

[skelly]

And welcome to the world of genre fiction/poetry, Mike. Overcome your literary bias.

Overcome.

Overcoooooome!!!

:D

[moblues]

It reads more like horror than SF to me. But those bits of word choice will I think be worn-out for many spec. readers because of the genre-specific cliches. Which is totally not your fault, Mike, but knowing about 'em will help you avoid 'em.

Not to be a pest, but what are these genre-specific cliches? Do I have blinders on? I must.




Mike

[moblues]

And welcome to the world of genre fiction/poetry, Mike. Overcome your literary bias.

Overcome.

Overcoooooome!!!

:D

I WILL cross to the other side.




Mike

[moblues]

One thing that I find interesting is how Shweta thinks this is Star Wars redux and you, Scott, think this is a hero's journey.

I've either done a great job or a poor job with my construct. Interesting.

Well, obviously this isn't spec. I'll figure it out and give you something worthwhile.

Thanks for being patient.




Mike

[Shweta]

Star Wars is a Hero's Journey.

It's just the one that has overused the words Dark and Menace more than most others. Though lots of EpicFantasy has managed that, too.

Have you seen Fantasy cliche lists, Mike?

[moblues]

I didn't think about this before I wrote it. Over the years the written word has been recycled and reused in lyrics and fiction. I didn't even notice. I wrote what I felt at the time without thoughts of stripping anything from anywhere else. This was my first attempt at spec poetry. Mike

[skelly]

Star Wars is a Hero's Journey.


Have you seen Fantasy cliche lists, Mike?
Thar you go. And you have committed no sin. I really really really really really really really really.....





....really really really hope you reread my PM and stick with this thread. I honestly think you would excel at speculative poetry...but, as Shweta points out, you need to be a bit more widely read in the field, perhaps.

And it is a genre. And those of us in it are fiercely proud of that.

:)

[Dichroic]

Funny, to me it looks less genre and more about the onset of old age (silver threads in the gold - in fact, that's a line from an old, old song). Which I suppose might or might not be horror, depending on your views.

[Dichroic]

Anis: same thing.

[Jenny]

I recently bought an art book on alchemy, and Mike's poem started me off thinking about it, "silver in gold". The alchemists hid their thinking under symbols. When I look at the paintings and prints now, I see their "truth" dressed in glamour. I write more spec fiction than I do spec poetry, and I was wondering if a divide I see in my fiction carries over to spec poetry. Sometimes the stories are spec fic purely because of the world I build and set them in, but other times, the stories are themed and I use the spec fic to add colour and "disguise" the message. I don't know that I'm making myself clear, but are there two strands of spec poetry? One writes in and of alternative worlds - their exploration is its reason for being. The other uses spec's freedom (rather like Lewis did with Narnia) to colour and make digestible a message? Of course, the two blur, but do they exist?

I know this is a confused post, but I'm going to let it stand because I'm still working out in my own mind what is spec poetry. Any opinions welcome

[skelly]

I don't think it is that confusing, Jenny. Phillip K. Dick appears to have written SF specifically for that reason (blur the message to make it "digestible"). As did Rod Serling. You seem to be in rather great company. I would explore it further, were I you.

:)

[mab]

hello spec poets! I was very kindly pointed to this thread by Shweta, as I write poetry with a touch of the fantastical or mythic. I'm never sure about the definition 'speculative', it feels 'sci-fi' to me and that's a bit confining. Then again, I suppose most genre definitions are a tad fuzzy, and its easy shorthand for something we all know when we see it. I also think it can cross over into 'literary' poetry, as can all genre work of course.

Whoever it was that said something about the community, I totally agree. There is only a short list of zines which publish 'my type of spec', but within this small community I have become acquainted with a number of skilled writers who are also friendly, pleasant people- and even the editors are nice! Whilst with mainstream poetry (I might be wrong, this is my prejudice here...) I expect a bit of haughtiness and elitism. I'm being a total hippy here, but it sort of reminds me of when people swapped stories/songs round the campfire, sharing the creativity and magic amongst normal people, rather than it being something for the 'elite'.

I hadn't heard of spec when I started writing it, I was just drawn to certain themes because of my interests in folklore, fairytales and symbols.

[Shweta]

I think of "speculative" as a blanket term that covers fantasy, science fiction, supernatural horror, mythic fiction of any kind, and the more literary thingies like slipstream and magical realism, which also speculate.

And look everyone! New blood! Mua ha. I mean, :welcome: Mab!

pst, it's Shweta. No c. I'm not German.

[mab]

You're right of course, its a very wide term...I don't know why spec= 'mostly sci-fi' in my brain. Maybe 'cos it sounds slightly futuristic to me. I love some fantasy and some magic realism, but I'm very confused by terms like 'slipstream', 'interstitial' 'new weird'. Then again I'm easily confused.

sorry about that pesky 'c', you are no longer German!

[Angelinity]

AHA a poetry thread i missed!!! speculative poetry -- so that's what i been writin'?

can I post a sample below for opinions? (this one was published, but it's the first one I thought of as possibly conforming to the speculative definition. unless i'm wrong...)


The Seed Collector

Slice across the belly.
A clinical cut, I see.
No spilt blood on the sheets --
though your latexed claws left prints
on the scalpel
and the lids of her eyes.

Were you afraid to see yourself mirrored --
Dorian Gray seeking youth eternal
in her seed?
Did she grant your twisted prayer?

Final gasp saved in a clear bag
kept in your pocket,
thinking you had her soul,
you take it out evenings hoping today
it might look more like the you
in your daydreams.

[Shweta]

Interstitial work falls between genres. It's work that is best categorised as neither X nor Y, rather than both X and Y. And since successful interstitial work spawns others like it, eventually creating a subgenre, it's sort of a moving target.

The Interstitial Arts Movement has a core of people whose work is fantastical, but I see no inherent reason why interstitial fiction needs to have any toehold in fantasy.

Slipstream and New Weird are much harder, for me. The only way to have a sense of the categories is to read 'em.

[Shweta]

The Seed Collector

Slice across the belly.
A clinical cut, I see.
No spilt blood on the sheets --
though your latexed claws left prints
on the scalpel
and the lids of her eyes.

Were you afraid to see yourself mirrored --
Dorian Gray seeking youth eternal
in her seed?
Did she grant your twisted prayer?

Final gasp saved in a clear bag
kept in your pocket,
thinking you had her soul,
you take it out evenings hoping today
it might look more like the you
in your daydreams.

eep.
There's an image to go to bed with! :eek:
*hides*

[Dichroic]

Angelinity - I'd say that's one that can be taken either way. Ironically it's when I look at it more literally that it seems like an SF thing. Or I can take it as a metaphor, a new and inventive look at the old idea of ripping out someone's heart, in which case it cold happen tomorrow. I guess that makes it certainly a metaphor with a speculative sensibility about it.

One difficulty with the "speculative" label is it covers so...much ... STUFF! My recent poem about dancing in the Summer-king's palace is as different from this clinical piece as it can be, yet they both fall under the same label. There are entire subgenres or edge genres I'm likely to avoid (slipstream) or be attracted to (interstitial) - but in general I think of it like rock and roll. If someone told me they didn't like rock, I'd just think they hadn't heard the whole range of it - and if they told me they liked all of it I'd think they wree an idiot.

[skelly]

The Seed Collector

Slice across the belly.
A clinical cut, I see.
No spilt blood on the sheets --
though your latexed claws left prints
on the scalpel
and the lids of her eyes.

Were you afraid to see yourself mirrored --
Dorian Gray seeking youth eternal
in her seed?
Did she grant your twisted prayer?

Final gasp saved in a clear bag
kept in your pocket,
thinking you had her soul,
you take it out evenings hoping today
it might look more like the you
in your daydreams.
This definitely qualifies as speculative poetry in my book. You might read around in the genre and see if it is something you want to pursue further. Good poem, too :)

[Angelinity]

There's an image to go to bed with! :eek:
*hides*

(says she of the GreenLongTooth Clan) :ROFL:

[mab]

What are everyone's favourite spec poetry zines/ anthologies etc?
I read around fairly widely, but there is a small, mythic niche I particularly enjoy. Here are a few of my faves:

Goblin Fruit (http://www.goblinfruit.net/)
Scheherezade's Bequest (http://www.cabinet-des-fees.com/s_bequest.html)
Dante's Heart (http://www.dantesheart.com/)
Mythic Passages (http://www.mythicjourneys.org/newsletter_current.html)
Les Bonnes Fees (http://www.les-bonnes-fees.com/contents_200807.html)
Fairy Tale Review
(http://www.fairytalereview.com/current.html)Lone Star Stories (http://literary.erictmarin.com/current.htm)
Aberrant Dreams (http://www.hd-image.com/poetry.htm)
Mythic Delerium (http://www.mythicdelirium.com/#feature)

[emeraldcite]

I did put something here about the 2008 Speculative Poetry contest, but Stonetable beat me...should've looked first.:e2smack::e2smack:

[Shweta]

What are everyone's favourite spec poetry zines/ anthologies etc?
I like a lot of the poetry in Strange Horizons too.
Beyond that, your list gave me several cool new places to look at, thanks :)

[Dichroic]

Speaking of specpo, I see that newbie Staceypants's brilliant (IMO) Goose That Lays the Golden Eggs (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111879) has fallen off the front page with only one comment. I think those of you interested in this topic might want to go take a look.

[skelly]

Speaking of specpo, I see that newbie Staceypants's brilliant (IMO) Goose That Lays the Golden Eggs (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111879) has fallen off the front page with only one comment. I think those of you interested in this topic might want to go take a look.
Good catch. Thank you.

[Dichroic]

It seems like one good use of this thread. I think that a lot of people who frequent the poetry forum don't particularly respond to speculative stuff (I don't mean that they ignore it but that it doesn't strike much of a chord) and so sometimes good stuff slides by without much notice.

[moblues]

All right, Scott. Am I getting closer?


it is only I
it can’t be a me
but bits of me

just numbers
zero and one
is all I can be

my parents'
names were
commented out

their last name is

©

please help me

find me







Mike

[skelly]

All right, Scott. Am I getting closer?


it is only I
it can’t be a me
but bits of me

just numbers
zeros and ones
is all I can be

my parents'
names were
commented out

their last name is

©/brilliant. End the poem here and you are dead on. LOVE this.


please help me

find me








Mike
Love it, Mike. Grain of salt and all that per the suggestions above. In speculative poetry there is this matter of intent, and this matter of form. They have to balance. I am assuming you have availed yourself of the readings that I have suggested.

I really like this poem, whatever you choose to classify it as. The effort and talent shows through.

With the edits above...or some similar...I would publish it. Speaking of which I'm getting ready to launch an online speculative thing that may be of interest.........still ironing it out...stay tuned.

Good poem Mike.

[moblues]

With the edits above...or some similar...I would publish it. Speaking of which I'm getting ready to launch an online speculative thing that may be of interest.........still ironing it out...stay tuned.

Good poem Mike.




it is only I
it can’t be a me
but bits

numbers
zeros and ones
is all I can be

my parents'
names were
commented out

their last name is

©



Thanks, Scott. I've been trying to find a way to write specpo. This stuff is NOT easy. And, yes I have been reading all I can find on the subject as well as following the links provided here.

About the online publishing thing? Lemme know. I'm in.




Mike

[Shweta]

Grain of salt again, but I think you're over-emphasizing the bits/numbers thing for a spec. audience. So I'd go one step further and get rid of or replace "numbers".

[moblues]

Grain of salt again, but I think you're over-emphasizing the bits/numbers thing for a spec. audience. So I'd go one step further and get rid of or replace "numbers".

*Sigh* Just when I thought I was getting close. Don't you worry. I'll give you something more than good.






Mike

[moblues]

Never mind. Sorry.

[Shweta]

*Sigh* Just when I thought I was getting close. Don't you worry. I'll give you something more than good.
I think you're very close, and it's definitely good.
It's just that when you follow "bits" with "numbers, zeros and ones" it doesn't let the reader make the jump, the rather wonderful double meaning of bits you have there.

And spec readers do like to make our own little jumps :)

[moblues]

Does this work?


it is only I
it can’t be a me
but bits

my parents'
names were
commented out

their last name is

©


I am really trying to wrap my mind around this stuff.




Mike

[skelly]

it is only I
it can’t be a me
but bits

numbers
zeros and ones
is all I can be

my parents'
names were
commented out

their last name is

©



Thanks, Scott. I've been trying to find a way to write specpo. This stuff is NOT easy. And, yes I have been reading all I can find on the subject as well as following the links provided here.

About the online publishing thing? Lemme know. I'm in.




Mike
This is the version that I like. I'm not following Shweta's comments on the "numbers" thing, but we all have our little likes and dislikes. I think you are were you want to be at this point Mike. Subscribe to a few specpo mags (if you can) and read as much of it as you can by as many different poets as possible.

And write write write! :)

[Shweta]

This is the version that I like.
Yeah, I think just losing the middle stanza doesn't work, and you do need something there. It's only the one word I find redundant.
I'm not following Shweta's comments on the "numbers" thing, but we all have our little likes and dislikes.
Let me try to be clearer, then.
The word "bits" has a wonderful double meaning. Pieces, or binary digits.

When it's followed by "numbers/zeros and ones" that loses the double meaning. It specifies the sense of the word "bits"; and collapsing to only one sense of the word loses the poem depth and resonance.

Now, I'm assuming that any spec fic reader has both senses of the word "bits" easily accessible, moreso than a non-spec person. So they already got that bits could mean binary digits, and being told that is a) treating them like they're not too bright and b) not letting them read the word in the other sense. Which is a loss all told.

However, looks like something does need to be there as fulcrum.

[skelly]

All right, Scott. Am I getting closer?


it is only an I
it can’t be a me
but bits of me

just numbers
zeros and ones / and possible change to "ones and zeros"
is are all I can be

my parents' / technically correct, but I would use a bit of my poetic license here and keep the plural, but lose the possessive...parents
names were
commented out

their last name is was

©

please help me

find me







Mike
I see what you are saying, Shweta. I think I like it better when it is more direct, rather than open to wider interpretation. Above is what I would like to see, but of course, it may run afoul of Mike's original intentions.

eta: I am particularly fond of the rhyme that you get when you read the last line, the copyright symbol, as "cee." Or "see."

[Shweta]

I see what you are saying, Shweta. I think I like it better when it is more direct, rather than open to wider interpretation. Above is what I would like to see, but of course, it may run afoul of Mike's original intentions.

I wonder if there is a way to be direct without repeating. Possibly not. I like the direct too. It just feels to me that, for a spec. audience, bits/numbers/zeros and ones is hitting the point a little too hard.

I don't think this problem is a dealbreaker. I just think, if there's a way to keep that double meaning of "bits" for one line longer, it'll be stronger.

eta: I am particularly fond of the rhyme that you get when you read the last line, the copyright symbol, as "cee." Or "see."
So am I, and that's part of why I like the 3-stanza form. Then there's me/be/c

[moblues]

Thank you for your input and great suggestions, guys. I'll take a longer look at this and resubmit what I come up with--possibly tomorrow. You've already both given me wonderful ideas to work with.

Specpo has definitely got my attention now. I will follow all of the suggested links and do some more of my own research.

Shweta, have you ever tried minimalism? I think if you haven't, you'll like it and be very good at it.




Mike

[Shweta]

Mike, I'm a fake poet. I seem to only write things that turn up in my head, and I feel like just the channel.

I have never deliberately sat down to write something in a particular style; the lines that pop up in my head sort of decide that for me. Which is to say I've been doing it all on intuition and not on craft.

I'm definitely happy to try something deliberately & work on my craft but... gah, how? Where does one start? I don't wanna write slight and boring stuff.

[Dichroic]

Shweta: well, what do you do writing a short story? Do you insist it be profound and perfect on the first draft? Every time?

[Shweta]

Shweta: well, what do you do writing a short story? Do you insist it be profound and perfect on the first draft? Every time?
YES!
I mean, er, no. But I can't start writing a story without a voice, and I guess poetic style sits in the same place as voice in my head?

I think I am still learning by imitation; I have no conscious grasp of poetry except from a ling/lit critique point of view. So who knows, a few more minimalist poems to crit and I might write one :)

[moblues]

Mike, I'm a fake poet. I seem to only write things that turn up in my head, and I feel like just the channel.

I have never deliberately sat down to write something in a particular style; the lines that pop up in my head sort of decide that for me. Which is to say I've been doing it all on intuition and not on craft.

I'm definitely happy to try something deliberately & work on my craft but... gah, how? Where does one start? I don't wanna write slight and boring stuff.

There is no such thing as a fake poet, Shweta :). If you are true to your writing and yourself--it's poetry. I've had so many arguments over the years when I've said there is no wrong way to write if you learn the craft. After that, you know how to break the rules. Specpo was the first time I deliberately wrote within a certain genre I was unfamiliar with. I promised Scott I would give it a shot. I'm enjoying the learning process.

With time I'll improve at this form.

I don't write poetry until a feeling overtakes me or an opening pops into my head. Then the piece writes itself. I know exactly where you are coming from. Never force a poem simply for the sake of writing one.

When I started to focus on poetry about five years ago, I had already been writing lyrics for over thirty years. The transition was easy for me. I just studied the craft. My style just evolved to modern minimalism. It wasn't by choice or an intended direction.

It appears that you write short fiction. I'll go look for your stuff. Shorts and novel length fiction is where my true skill-set lies.



Mike

[Shweta]

There is no such thing as a fake poet, Shweta :).
Well, a poet-in-training, if you wish :)
I shall see if a minimalist attempt comes to me.

It appears that you write short fiction. I'll go look for your stuff. Shorts and novel length fiction is where my true skill-set lies.

Some of my work is linked in my sig line, which I know is way too long, but -- shinies! :D
I recommend Half Flight (http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/jomafiction/2008/02/half-flight-by.html).

[moblues]

On my way to check out Half Flight (http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/jomafiction/2008/02/half-flight-by.html).




Mike

[moblues]

Wow. Powerful stuff on many levels. Some of them personal. My wife has a problem where she really only has the use of one arm.

Parallelisms within the piece are striking. The language is lush without overdoing it. Difficult to do. You managed to dredge a lot of emotion from me reading this. Not an easy task either.

I must read this again.

My novel-length fiction is sci-fi paranormal, with connections to Native American mythology. My shorts are mostly horror.

My stuff is not as thoughtful as the piece you wrote. I'm a straight ahead action guy. My wife always calls me a little kid when she does read my stuff.

Just fun romps. Done well.




Mike

[Shweta]

Aww, thank you, Mike!
You made my day :)

My stories seem to sortof vary between that and, er, more normal stories. Have not succeeded in doing adventure, though. I would like to be able to write action.

Anyway, I tried! to do minimalism, picking a topic tied to stuff that has been bugging me. I did not get minimalism. Too many words!

But here's (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112459) very first real deliberate poem, written thanks to you :)

[moblues]

Aww, thank you, Mike!
You made my day :)

My stories seem to sortof vary between that and, er, more normal stories. Have not succeeded in doing adventure, though. I would like to be able to write action.

Anyway, I tried! to do minimalism, picking a topic tied to stuff that has been bugging me. I did not get minimalism. Too many words!

But I'm going to post it in the crit section and link here to my very first real deliberate poem, written thanks to you :)

Ah, but here's the thing:

I have written minimalist pieces up to 4-6 strophes and 16-24 lines.


I normally would not stretch it out so far. Still minimalist if written correctly.

Can't wait to see it.




Mike

[skelly]

I brought this up in another thread...me self-pubbing my own specpo chapbook. Back in the late 70's/early 80's it was almost a rite-of-passage in this field. Robert Frazier's Burning With A Vision jumps to mind, and I remember it back when it was a chapbook.

So two questions for my specpo buds...one, do you like my cover? Is there anything that shouts "Dear God in heavan NO!" to you?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o88/sak2112/tvsAW.jpg

And two, does $5.00 seem a bit pricey for an 8.5X11 saddle-stapled book that will have a nice card-stock cover, 40-ish pages, and 30 to 40-ish poems?

If it does, what would you pay? I'm asking because I really want to put out a nice quality...um, chapbook. I don't want to skimp on the extras if I can help it, like when they trim the edges after it is bound so that they are all neat and even.

Everything is "camera-ready," as it were. All I have to do is hand it over to the printer. It's not intended as a money-making venture so much as it is meant as a way to offer people a full collection of my speculative poetry (and to get it in the hands of some reviewers:)

What do you guys think?

[moblues]

I like the cover, Scott. About the cost of publication: I used to be able to tell you off the top of my head. I have a bunch of saved html files on disk at home about publishing. I'll check later when I get home from work and share them with you. I know I have what you are looking for because I was going to put together my own chapbook on my Childhood series. Just never got around to it.

I'll be one of the first in line to purchase your chapbook.




Mike

[Shweta]

Looks good, Scott! I'd pick that up in a bookstore and look through it.

I've paid $10 for fiction chapbooks such as you describe, though admittedly from known quantities, and I assume you're wanting to sell to people who've never heard of you :)

But I don't think $5 is bad, though I dunno about poetry sales...

[skelly]

Thanks for the encouragement you guys. Mike, I will check back for that info you mentioned, and thank you in advance for going to the trouble. I appreciate it.

Shweta, I'm kinda laid back about the "selling" thing in that I'm under no illusions that I am going to make money on it. It's more about having something to show folks if I am in a position to do so (and maybe sell them a few copies!) Kevin (KTC) sells chapbooks when he does poetry readings and his story kind of inspired me. Of course, I have no intention of doing poetry readings, but I'm sure I could find other outlets.

And the reviewers, of course. Need to get some freebies in people's hands :) I'll have a thing in the sidebar on my blog for it so folks can order a copy...once I figure out how to do that. Thanks for your thoughts on the issue, both of you :)

[Dichroic]

Skelly, just from my own reactions without any knowledge of what's standard, I think $5 is a good price. Low enough to be a whim purchase, less than a massmarket pb currently costs, enough pages so it doesn't fele like a waste, and (this is important) if you sell them in person at a reading or whatever you won't have to worry much about making change. As Shweta says, I might consider $10 but I would have to think about that - I can toss over a five without much consideration. I certainly wouldn't go lower.

[Shweta]

Yeah, even if you don't want to make money, less might communicate that you don't think your work is worth much.

[moblues]

Scott, I haven't located the disks yet. Probably in a box in the garage. I'll check tomorrow. I also think $5.00 is a very good price.




Mike

[Dichroic]

I just wanted to comment that it's been kind of fun watching Mike and Shweta try to write each other's kinds of poems, even if specpo and minimalism aren't necessarily exclusive categories. In tribute to the two of them, here's my go at a speculative minimalist piece:

Standing Together

When they came
we finally
redefined
"alien".

[Shweta]

Ooooh Dichroic, that's exactly it!

[Shweta]

And, er, I wroted something else (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112570).

[moblues]

Thanks, Di. It has been an enlightening adventure. And Shweta--I am going to go readed it. :D

And, hey--I resemble the "alien" appellation. ;)




Mike

[moblues]

Oh and Di, you KNOW I'm going to write specpo minims when I wrap my head around the genre.

I apologize in advance for the stir I will indeed create when this happens, LOL.




Mike

[Dichroic]

Whereas I've been writing non-speccy stuff. But I did enjoy Scylla and her leathers!

I suppose an alien riding on the Spoon River train might arouse some comment, though I did have one of the more earthly sort in mind for a future day.

[skelly]

Di, Kevin...thanks for your comments! I appreciate it.

And I have been enjoying the friendly tug-of-war between Shweta and Mike too. Educational. Mike, I see no "stir" on the horizon. I think your type of minimalism would (will) work well in this genre. I'm glad you chose to explore it with us :)

[Dichroic]

Oh and Di, you KNOW I'm going to write specpo minims when I wrap my head around the genre.


Mike

Well, Mike, there's mine. Have at it. (I suppose I could put it out on the crit forum, but I'd rather not do that for at least a few days. I want to let people focus on the current one first..)

[i spy]

i think 5.00 is too cheap.

[skelly]

i think 5.00 is too cheap.
I do too, in the long view. Some of the poems in this collection have been "simmering" for over a decade. I suppose if Stephen King tried this he could charge whatever he wanted. I hope this means you'll order a copy at the bargain price of $4.99 (when they go on sale).

:)

Oh, and just got a rejection e-mail from Star*line. Life sucks. Poetry sucks. Everything sucks. Have a nice day.

[Shweta]

It may sound too cheap and hey, maybe it is...but it's a number that works if you are looking to work a crowd.
This was my guess thinking as a reader/buyer, Kevin; interesting and useful that reader-intuition matches what you know from experience.

Skelly, are there indy bookstores around? My experience is that some indy bookstores will stock chapbooks.

[moblues]

I haven't forgotten about the html files about publishing I promised you. Been through four boxes so far (I can't believe how many programs and saved disks I have. OK--I do. having 4 PCs and 3 Macs, you can accumulate a lot of stuff). Still on the case.




Mike

[i spy]

It may sound too cheap and hey, maybe it is...but it's a number that works if you are looking to work a crowd. I take 30 or 40 copies of chapbooks with me when I do poetry readings...and I usually sell out. They are absolutely inexpensive to make and if you sell them for $5.00 a pop they are more willing to toss a fiver down than not. And 50 x $5.00 is $250.00. I do print runs of 50 per chapbook and have sold a few hundred over the past couple of years. It's not going to make you rich, but it's nice to get your poetry out there to an audience that is actually there to hear/read poetry. That's rare...no harm making a few bucks in the process. Chances are, if you sell them for $10...they're going to walk to the bar and buy a couple of beers instead. It's a mind over matter thing...They are more willing to throw away 5 than they are 10...and your main objective shouldn't be to get rich, it should be for as many people as possible to walk away with your words in their hands. THAT'S THE WAY I SEE IT, ANYWAY.

i understand what you're saying about getting your work out there, but i contend that $5.00 is too cheap for what i've read of his work. i would rather have a quality book made up, like from shutter-fly, and sell it for 25.00 to 10 people who knows its worth enough to want to purchase it than to 50 for 5.00 with the likely hood that it ends up as trash. it's not about getting rich, it's about worth. TO ME ANYWAY. :)

[moblues]

I haven't forgotten about the html files about publishing I promised you. Been through four boxes so far (I can't believe how many programs and saved disks I have. OK--I do. having 4 PCs and 3 Macs, you can accumulate a lot of stuff). Still on the case.




Mike


Good news and bad news: Found the disk. It's corrupted. Hundreds of hours of research lost.

I'm gonna go get drunk now.




Mike

[Shweta]

i would rather have a quality book made up, like from shutter-fly, and sell it for 25.00 to 10 people who knows its worth enough to want to purchase it than to 50 for 5.00 with the likely hood that it ends up as trash.

But if the point is for new people to read the poetry, this would only go to 10 people who already knew the work.

Probably both selling a few lovely-but-expensive books and selling a fair number of nice chapbooks are perfectly good things to do. Just for different purposes.

Good news and bad news: Found the disk. It's corrupted. Hundreds of hours of research lost.
Ack, Mike. That's sucky :Hug2:

[moblues]

Yeah, Shweta. At least now I know what I don't need. I'll just have to hunt down the sites again.

I need this stuff for myself anyway.




Mike

[skelly]

I'm sorry to hear that, Mike. I know the feeling, though. ARRRGGHHH!

As it turns out, I decided against the chapbook idea. Simply too much effort for what will probably wind up being a box of chapbooks sitting on a shelf in my closet. I've decided to offer it online, for free.

Also, I've missed my fiction writing goal for three days running thanks to goofing around with this, so it is time to get back on track. I did use the cover, though. Sorta. :) The link's gonna be in my sig for awhile if you ever want to go over and take a look.

[i spy]

But if the point is for new people to read the poetry, this would only go to 10 people who already knew the work.

that's not my point although it may be yours. my point is not selling short in exchange for exposure. it's holding out for people who know and value and worth of what you have to offer. i'm the same way with art. i had a gallery offer me a premiere solo show (practically unheard of for new artists) if i would omit the nude work and consider limiting the price to, let's say, under a 100.00 so people in the local area could afford it. i refused. getting out there isn't that important to me. (i already have a job and support myself.) it's about value and respect and not cheapening the process simply to reach multitudes.

have you ever seen a self-made book from a place like shutterfly? it's gorgeous; leather and can be offset with any kind of art. mine is being countered with my paintings and i'm amazed at what it actually looks like in print. the vibrancy of color against the words is astounding.

Probably both selling a few lovely-but-expensive books and selling a fair number of nice chapbooks are perfectly good things to do. Just for different purposes.

i think it's perfectly okay as long as it's what a writer truly wants. it's just not what i would do or recommend to someone else. if you want to be published one day, a good possibility is that the publisher (or agent) is going to want to know if there have been any previous publishings floating around out there. many want exclusive rights to publish your work.

[Shweta]

that's not my point although it may be yours. my point is not selling short in exchange for exposure. it's holding out for people who know and value and worth of what you have to offer.
(To be clear, I was talking about what might be helpful for skelly, not what I personally want, but...) I'm confused about how you get there without exposure, i spy.

As far as writing goes, IMO, like art, almost nobody gets what they're worth. Be nice if we did, but lacking that, I'd like people to be able to read what I've written. I definitely start at the top as far as markets go, but I'll go for eyeballs and prestige over money at this stage, any day. Money would be nice too.

[i spy]

(To be clear, I was talking about what might be helpful for skelly, not what I personally want, but...) I'm confused about how you get there without exposure, i spy.

it depends on how you want your work out there. if you want to offer poetry books for five bucks a pop to people then that's how you get out there. i said there was nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wanted to do; however, i wouldn't recommend it unless it's a quality poetry festival where big names are going to be there.

As far as writing goes, IMO, like art, almost nobody gets what they're worth. Be nice if we did, but lacking that, I'd like people to be able to read what I've written. I definitely start at the top as far as markets go, but I'll go for eyeballs and prestige over money at this stage, any day. Money would be nice too.

that's where i think you're misunderstanding me. it's not about the money. money corrupts everything if its focus exceeds the art. for example, my power in painting (i'm still working on the poetry aspect so we'll forgo that for now) is that i haven't been premiered or sold yet. this is why the one gallery i decided to pop into (just to gauge reaction from a professional) jumped all over my portfolio. the FIRST thing they asked me was if i'd shown anywhere else yet and they would premiere me with a reception blahblahblah. i spent years accummulating an inventory of over 300 paintings. now i'll spend a few more working on words because i know what my goal is.

"inside" i'm not ready. Skelly might know he is. you might know you are. there's nothing wrong with going straight for the target and there's nothing wrong with not unless you sell yourself short during the process. that's all i'm saying.

there's a time and place for everything and there's power in holding back until the right time.

[Shweta]

that's where i think you're misunderstanding me. it's not about the money.
Oh, er, I didn't mean to say that it's about money.
Only that it would be nice if creative folks could get paid what we're worth, really. Which is, for most of the good ones, enough to pay the bills and make more creative work.

there's nothing wrong with going straight for the target and there's nothing wrong with not unless you sell yourself short during the process. that's all i'm saying.
Gotcha.
I think we're saying fairly similar things, actually, in different ways.

there's a time and place for everything and there's power in holding back until the right time.[/quote]

[i spy]

Oh, er, I didn't mean to say that it's about money.
Only that it would be nice if creative folks could get paid what we're worth, really. Which is, for most of the good ones, enough to pay the bills and make more creative work.

you mean before they die, right? ;)


Gotcha.
I think we're saying fairly similar things, actually, in different ways.

we most certainly are.

[Dichroic]

[quote=i spy;2658380]you mean before they die, right? ;)

[\quote]

I think most would prefer it to be substantially before they die!

I find something just morally wrong about a world where artists whose work is both beloved and considered seminal in their field can still be hurting for money. (I'm thinking of Pamela Dean and Emma Bull here.) But it's the world we got, so I guess we deal.

[Shweta]

I find something just morally wrong about a world where artists whose work is both beloved and considered seminal in their field can still be hurting for money. (I'm thinking of Pamela Dean and Emma Bull here.) But it's the world we got, so I guess we deal.

John M. Ford always had money troubles too. Speaking of speculative poetry. He won a World Fantasy Award for his poem Winter Solstice, Camelot Station, which he wrote for a christmas card.

And he died broke. And as I understand it, would have died broker if Robert Jordan hadn't thought he was the best writer alive.

Which is just. not. fair. But yes, it's the world we got.

Regret, by definition, comes too late.
Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate. (http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/003789.html)

[Dichroic]

John M. Ford always had money troubles too. Speaking of speculative poetry. He won a World Fantasy Award for his poem Winter Solstice, Camelot Station, which he wrote for a christmas card.

And he died broke. And as I understand it, would have died broker if Robert Jordan hadn't thought he was the best writer alive.

Which is just. not. fair. But yes, it's the world we got.

Regret, by definition, comes too late.
Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate. (http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/003789.html)

Oddly, I have a little less trouble with the concept in Mike Ford's case, because he seems to have been more of a writer's writer than a popular one. (Also because he lucked out and got so many more years with the kidney transplant, and got to enjoy them.

Still, he wor a wonderly fine candle.

[Shweta]

Um, er.
I sort of got into the sort-of-here critquing zone and critted so many poems I bumped my own (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113711) right off the first page with just one comment.

Help?

*feels silly now*

[moblues]

This probably sucks, but here we go:


these are just eyes
I won’t need them

anymore

these are just arms
I can leave them

on the floor


rotting timber


this is my life
in terabytes


is there more?


more?



I need





more















Mike

[moblues]

You guys shouldn't need a bump. Shame.

For some reason Harlan Ellison came up in a conversation with my wife today. So she looked him up. She was reading aloud from a web page and said he doesn't write Sci-fi (he wrote a lot of Twilight Zone and Star Trek episodes). I said no he doesn't. She asked what does he write? I thought for a second and realized . . . damn . . . speculative fiction!

This is a breakthrough for me. I get it now. I lost all of my old books from the 70s and 80s (movers). I had a few of his. Brilliant writer. This will help me wrap my mind around this concept (I hope).




Mike

[Dichroic]

Um, what? Then what is he doing hanging out pissing people off at all those SF cons?

[moblues]

Um, what? Then what is he doing hanging out pissing people off at all those SF cons?


Please don't tell me he has become a doddering old fool, Di. What did he do? I'm just recalling his work from the late 50s to 70s.

Sorry, Scott. Not trying to hijack your thread.





Mike

[Shweta]

Please don't tell me he has become a doddering old fool, Di. What did he do? I'm just recalling his work from the late 50s to 70s.

Sorry, Scott. Not trying to hijack your thread.Mike

Well, he groped Connie Willis in public (http://www.suite101.com/blog/catrambo/connie_willis_and_harlan_ellison_at_worldcon) during the Hugo Award ceremony in '06, for starters...

[moblues]

OMG. I had no idea. What a creep. He was the influence for my first short nearly 30 years ago. Never submitted (for good reasons ;)). My respect for him is gone. I'm disgusted. I am astounded and dismayed.

Forgive me for my ignorance. I will now go to the lavatory to vomit. :(




Mike

[Shweta]

OMG. I had no idea. What a creep. He was the influence for my first short nearly 30 years ago. Never submitted (for good reasons ;)). My respect for him is gone. I'm disgusted. I am astounded and dismayed.

I think there are people who will not invite Harlan to SF conventions any more. There are certainly people (like me) who will probably not go anywhere he's invited.

Forgive me for my ignorance. I will now go to the lavatory to vomit. :(

:Hug2: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

This does not change his brilliance, and there's no shame in being influenced by his writing. But yeah, nor does his brilliance excuse his assholery.

[moblues]

What gets me is that he insists he isn't a Science Fiction writer and that he writes Speculative Fiction. If this is the case, decline invitations to these conventions, and state your reasons for doing so. This guy appears to be a psychological and emotional mess. Such a waste of talent.

*Sigh*





Mike

[moblues]

forgive my ignorance, sir
what model do you now own?

I have an X3772

what problems are you having?

it kills any visitor

well, that's not good

what should I do?

press the reset button, and run . . . fast

fast?


very fast






Mike

[Dichroic]

Well, he groped Connie Willis in public (http://www.suite101.com/blog/catrambo/connie_willis_and_harlan_ellison_at_worldcon) during the Hugo Award ceremony in '06, for starters...


Not just in public: on stage. I was there watching it; I have never seen an entire large audience fall silent with hundreds of jaws dropping at once like that.

[Dichroic]

[QUOTE=moblues;2704704]What gets me is that he insists he isn't a Science Fiction writer and that he writes Speculative Fiction. If this is the case, decline invitations to these conventions, and state your reasons for doing so. This guy appears to be a psychological and emotional mess. Such a waste of talent.

*Sigh*/QUOTE]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Speculative Fiction is generally considered to include science fiction and fantasy (sometimes horror). And the conventions usually (not always) cover both. Harlan's accurate, actually: Jeffty is Five is certainly more fantasy than science fiction.

[moblues]

These were my thoughts at first also, Di. It appears that they are different, yet similar siblings. At least that is what I have gleaned from this thread. DO NOT take anything I suggest on specpo as gospel (I have no idea what I'm doing yet). I haven't even learned to walk, let alone crawl, in this genre. Just trying my best to wrap this stuff around my mind.




Mike

[moblues]

they said he just
fell over--that's it

did you check
for vital signs?

he's dead, sir

he isn't human

I know that, sir

then why are we
wasting our time?

because of them

because of whom?


let me introduce you



to them




Mike

[Shweta]

Er, guys? I don't think Mike meant the thread when he said "he's dead, sir". :tongue

Mike, I meant to respond to your poem after I thought about it for a bit, and then I flaked. Sorry!

So, the poem. I like it rather a lot. I think it could stand to gain a hint of specific imagery about the nonhuman, something to evoke the sense of it, though. And I wonder whether you need "to them" at the end. I have been dithering about that back and forth, so I'll just mention it for you.



And! You guys! Goblin Fruit is buying two of my poems! SQUEEEEE!

[moblues]

Er, guys? I don't think Mike meant the thread when he said "he's dead, sir". :tongue

Mike, I meant to respond to your poem after I thought about it for a bit, and then I flaked. Sorry!

So, the poem. I like it rather a lot. I think it could stand to gain a hint of specific imagery about the nonhuman, something to evoke the sense of it, though. And I wonder whether you need "to them" at the end. I have been dithering about that back and forth, so I'll just mention it for you.



And! You guys! Goblin Fruit is buying two of my poems! SQUEEEEE!



Will look closer at this. Trying to keep this great thread going.

Where is Scott? I hope all is well. Talk to you tomorrow. Need ZZZs. I gotta friggin' work tomorrow.




Mike

[Dichroic]

And! You guys! Goblin Fruit is buying two of my poems! SQUEEEEE!

I saw that. Can't pretend to surprise :D (good judgement on their part) but congratulations!!

[Dichroic]

This is probably an appropriate time to *also* mention that a poem of Shweta's is now up in Coyote Wild, whose edition this month (http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/narayan_katha_triumph.html)is dedicated to Young Adult works (speculative stuff, that being what Coyote Wild does).

[Shweta]

Awshucks.

[moblues]

Too cool. Congrats.



Mike

[moblues]

excuse me miss,
where do I report

for my new job?

well, what is it
that you do?

I don't know yet

what do you mean?

programming

you've never been . . .

shush. please

I understand

follow me

I will make this
a pleasant

experience
for you

thank you

the pleasure



will be mine




Mike

[Shweta]

That's creepy, Mike! I like :)

(I hit internet overstimulation/addiction last week and am trying to stay off AW till I am over the jitters, so this is a fly-by comment. Should be back next week or so.)

[moblues]

That's creepy, Mike! I like :)

(I hit internet overstimulation/addiction last week and am trying to stay off AW till I am over the jitters, so this is a fly-by comment. Should be back next week or so.)


Thanks, Shweta. It will be great when you are back.




Mike

[mab]

The latest edition of Goblin Fruit (http://www.goblinfruit.net/) is delicious. I'm not just saying that 'cos I'm in it!

I see Shweta will be in the next issue...looking forward to it!

[Shweta]

Ooooh Mab! *runs off to look at it*

And :hooray: towards the next one.

[Dichroic]

The latest edition of Goblin Fruit (http://www.goblinfruit.net/) is delicious. I'm not just saying that 'cos I'm in it!

I see Shweta will be in the next issue...looking forward to it!

I do like "In the Clearing". And I see Greyrose is in the same issue, which makes it a double-good one for AW!

[mab]

Thanks! Is Greyrose a fellow AWer? Which is their poem?

[Shweta]

Gray Rose, yes, she is :) Rose Lemberg. Her poem is Insomnia.

[skelly]

WOO! Check this out...

I just got an email from Stephen M. Wilson, co-editor of Dwarf Stars, requesting permission to reprint my poem "Rhea's Lament," which appeared in Star*Line, July-August 2007. According to Mr. Wilson, Dwarf Stars: "...publishes a selection of the
best science fiction, fantasy, and horror short-short poetry of 10 lines or less from the previous year. The membership of the SFPA votes on their favorites, and the winner is awarded the Dwarf Stars award and sent to the Nebula Showcase anthology editor for possible inclusion."

:eek:

Anyway, exciting stuff! BTW, what's up with everyone? I've been out of pocket lately...

[kdnxdr]

Way cool!

Much congratulations.

kid

[skelly]

Thanks Kid. It brightened my day :) I think I'm gonna abandon fiction and just go with this poetry thing.

Since I been doing it for half my life. What the hell. Maybe some folks just aren't meant to be rich and famous.

I do so love speculative poetry, though. Damn. Should have just went with it back then. I'd be Bob Frazier by now.

:D

[Dichroic]

Skelly: wow.

[skelly]

Hey Di. Good to talk to you again. Just trying to wiggle my way back into the fold. Hope all is well with you. :)

But back on this spec po thing. Seriously. I am coming to the conclusion that I should have just followed that path. Better late than never, I suppose. What's twenty years?

Pfft!

[Dichroic]

But back on this spec po thing. Seriously. I am coming to the conclusion that I should have just followed that path. Better late than never, I suppose. What's twenty years?



A significant fraction of your life (unless you're waaaaay older than it seems reasonable to suppose.) Probably marriage. Definitely a kid. Work experience. You are not who you were twenty years ago and you'll never write the poems you would have then.

But I see no reason to think you won't be writing better ones, with that storehouse of life experience.

[Angelinity]

Scott, forget 'time'.

'late' -- what does that mean, LATE! no such thing and i believe you know it.

you know it.

[Gray Rose]

Yay Scott, awesome!!

Haven't been here for ages, and I see my name's been mentioned :D I just sold another poem to GF. GF rocks!

:)

[Shweta]

WOO! Check this out...

I just got an email from Stephen M. Wilson, co-editor of Dwarf Stars, requesting permission to reprint my poem "Rhea's Lament," which appeared in Star*Line, July-August 2007.
:eek: :e2faint: :picks self up: :hooray:
Yay Scott, awesome!!

Haven't been here for ages, and I see my name's been mentioned :D I just sold another poem to GF. GF rocks!

:)

You guys just rock! CONGRATULATIONS!

[skelly]

Thanks for the well-wishes guys. Yesterday I was just about convinced to quit with fiction altogether. I think instead I'll just amp up on the poetry.

I have to say, this thread has really helped me to focus. I had wandered off into what (for me) could only be called more "mainstream" type poetry. Not sure why I did that, or what I hoped to accomplish. Speculative poetry is really the only thing that I've ever written or published that anyone ever responded to.

So I think I'm gonna swing the bowsprit back over that-a-way...

:)

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

skelly!!! I don't support your decision to give up fiction, but I can sure climb onboard with your poetry success! Congrats!

Now... get back to work. :D

[Norman D Gutter]

Scott and Rose:

Congratulations, and many more such results.

Me, I got a rejection today, eight months after submission.

NDG

[Gray Rose]

I have to say, this thread has really helped me to focus. I had wandered off into what (for me) could only be called more "mainstream" type poetry. Not sure why I did that, or what I hoped to accomplish. Speculative poetry is really the only thing that I've ever written or published that anyone ever responded to.


Oh, and Scott, I think this is largely because speculative poetry matters to the community. Sure, it's a small community, etc, etc as opposed to the glorious world of blah de blah de blah, but it's really important that your work matters, and I just don't think there's anything like it in the mainstream poetry world.

But don't quit fiction either, please. :)


Norman, where did you send it to, if I may ask? 8 months is a long wait...

[Dichroic]

Oh, and Scott, I think this is largely because speculative poetry matters to the community. Sure, it's a small community, etc, etc as opposed to the glorious world of blah de blah de blah, but it's really important that your work matters, and I just don't think there's anything like it in the mainstream poetry world.

But don't quit fiction either, please. :)


Norman, where did you send it to, if I may ask? 8 months is a long wait...

Is it? I haven't submitted enough to know... but I'm going on six with a poem I submitted to Astropoetica. The editor seems to be being distracted by new motherhood and computer problems. I'd send it elsewhere but it feels like such a perfect fit there.

[Gray Rose]

Dichroic - I waited for more than that with GUD. In my experience, Goblin Fruit, Star*line, Miythic Delirium are MUCH faster.
If it feels like a perfect fit, leave it be - a sale after a long wait is better than a rejection after a short wait. :)

[Dichroic]

Thanks, Rose. I have one I could submit to Goblin Fruit (Will You Go Dancing), but I'm not sure it's ... I don't know, eldritch enough for them.

[Shweta]

Thanks, Rose. I have one I could submit to Goblin Fruit (Will You Go Dancing), but I'm not sure it's ... I don't know, eldritch enough for them.
Oh but, if that's the one I'm thinking of, it's so lovely.
The worst they can say is no.

And I needs to sleeps.

[Dichroic]

Thanks! Can't anyway, as I blogged it. I should probably quit doing that. (GF 's Guidelines say they'll consider work that's been published elsewhere, but strongly imply they prefer first electronic rights.)

[Dichroic]

Dichroic - I waited for more than that with GUD. In my experience, Goblin Fruit, Star*line, Miythic Delirium are MUCH faster.
If it feels like a perfect fit, leave it be - a sale after a long wait is better than a rejection after a short wait. :)

They *finally* rejected it (with a note that said "this one came close"). Any ideas for who might like a rhyming, fanciful, astronomical sort of poem?

[skelly]

They *finally* rejected it (with a note that said "this one came close"). Any ideas for who might like a rhyming, fanciful, astronomical sort of poem?
Sorry about that Di. Does Asimov's still accept poetry? You might try there. Of course, I'm assuming Asimov's is still publishing...I haven't been by a newstand in ages. Good luck placing it elsewhere :)

Dwarf Stars did indeed reprint my short poem, "Rhea's Lament." I haven't seen the contributor's copy yet, but still very excited about the whole thing. It's the first time anyone ever asked me if they could publish one of my poems, rather than the other way around.

I could get used to that sort of thing :)

Hope everyone is doing well.

[Shweta]

Bump :)

They *finally* rejected it (with a note that said "this one came close"). Any ideas for who might like a rhyming, fanciful, astronomical sort of poem?

Did you send it anywhere?

Hey y'all, I'd love a few more speccy eyeballs on XII:Tapah (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135), which is a tarot/mythic-ish poem thingy. Di looked at it and didn't explode, promise!

Annnd anyone else have spec poems that are sinking without much crit?

[Dichroic]

Bump :)



Did you send it anywhere?

Hey y'all, I'd love a few more speccy eyeballs on XII:Tapah (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135), which is a tarot/mythic-ish poem thingy. Di looked at it and didn't explode, promise!

Annnd anyone else have spec poems that are sinking without much crit?

Yeah, I tried again one other place. Got rejected, but the note said something like, "this didn't appeal quite enough" but went on to say "I welcome additional work from you". That's good, right?

My Nokomis one got a ton of feedback but mostly from you :) and thanks very much. In general, yeah, I think a lot of mainstream readersare not fully equipped to catch references. I have to say that I missed the Tarot ref in Tapah - it's not a subject I know tons about.

I'm planning to send Nokomis out, just trying to decide where. I don't have a good feeling yet for the differences among Lone Star, Goblin Fruit, Strange Horizons, et alia. (Possibly I should start by shooting lower but wotthehell. If I wanted to make money from writing I'd be creating a paper on embedding new processes in large organizations or some such instead of poems.) I do have one more currently in sub that I have *not* put up for crit.

Just at the moment, though, I'm working on one for my little brother's wedding, and having a heck of a time. It's much harder to write when you know going in that this is something that really matters (and when you'll have to stand up and read it literally in front of God and ever'body).

[Shweta]

Don't shoot lower!

Just try all the markets & see what they like, within submission guidelines. Worst they can say is no :)

[Shweta]

Bump.

What are the spec poets up to?

I just wroted another genre sonnet (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133202).

Mostly I have been up to selling buggerall this year, while piling up the "close but" rejections.

[skelly]

Bump.

What are the spec poets up to?

I just wroted another genre sonnet (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133202).

Mostly I have been up to selling buggerall this year, while piling up the "close but" rejections.
Hey then!!

Are all spec poets prone to having their Inet canceled for lack of payment......or is it just me?

I have something in Star*Line this summer...can't remember what it was though. A good one.

Shweta I have missed you. Di too. And Rose. Anybody seen Rose? I mean Dr. Rose? Rose, Ph.D., rather?

Anyway, back. Hugs kisses and mucho virtual white light en todo.

:)

[Shweta]

Rose has a prose+poetry-interstitial-story-thing sale to GUD :)

Awesome on your Star*Line piece -- and I'll be getting Star*Line! I'm excited!

:Hug2: Good to have you back, Scott!

[Dichroic]

I think Rose hasn't been around here much because she's busy with work, and she's one of those who takes a long time over each piece (I keep up with her on LJ).

Reminds me, I was meaning to subscribe to Star*Line. Not too expensive, even overseas.

[skelly]

Busy with work. See. Work totally sucks. I think art is the absolute opposite of socialist communism. It's not even anarchy. It's an organized resistance to organization. How weird is that?

Hey Di! Missed you! Was hugging and kissing on you a few posts back. Figuratively and collectively, of course.

Eventually Rose will simply cease to be altogether. She will just be this concept toward which we all bow.

I can hardly wait.

:D

[Izz]

SCOTT!!!

w00t

[Shweta]

It never ceases to amaze me that Rose is writing at all while managing being a new professor.

And I get to see almost all her work :D
But hey, you can't be too jealous -- she knows about AW 'cause of me!

[skelly]

Isaac! My old friend! Good lord man, where the hell had you got off to? Or maybe it was me that fell away. Anyway, good to see you again. I'm bedward bound now, but I'll pm ya. We need to catch up.

[Shweta]

:e2grouphu

[skelly]

It never ceases to amaze me that Rose is writing at all while managing being a new professor.

And I get to see almost all her work :D
But hey, you can't be too jealous -- she knows about AW 'cause of me!
I don't know...I can get pretty jealous. :D Anyway Shweta, you got the thread crankin again. Thank you and I'm gonna toss another idea out there....

Do we need more outlets (online, in print, etc.) for spec po, or is everything good as it is?

I ask because I have experimented with the idea several times, and I'm pretty much convinced that we have about as many outlets as we have in-putters. What say y'all?

[Shweta]

I'm not sure.

I think we have more outlets than we have readers.
I do wonder about the poems that fall into the cracks between what those outlets take, though.